RE: Honda Civic Type R - more details
Discussion
blearyeyedboy said:
Quite. There are a few reasons I ended up not buying an FN2 but I could really see why people did. I think photographs don't flatter the interior- they're nice places to sit and while a bit sci-fi/80's hi-fi, everything's well screwed together. I have many criticisms of FN2 but the interior isn't one of them. Neither is the "lack of torque". That's why God invented the gearbox, and FN2's got a lovely one.
Too many people got hung up on the figures that the NA engine produced. Yes, 150 lb ft (or 200 Nm) doesn't sound overly impressive compared to the 200+ lb ft turbo cars were beginning to put out at the time, but they forget that the gearbox was matched to a much greater rev range. The fact that the 8th gen Type R couldn't achieve 60 in 2nd (somewhere around 56 on the GPS) at 8000 rpm should give a slight indication as to how much more reduction there was at the gearbox. Torque at the wheels not at the engine is what ultimately propels a vehicle down the road.On another note, it is a shame Honda doesn't have its fingers in as many pies as Porsche and its parent groups so that they could pass emissions savings on to provide us with another NA engine that developed on the previous one. Heck, Porsche seem to find a way of selling a 9000 rpm screamer at the top of their line!
And finally, why are so many people claiming and hating on what are simply speculative tid-bits of information. Suddenly it seems that every man and his dog knows the technology behind the new turbo engine developed by Honda. Just let it be released, then have your way with it!
alexpa said:
If the output starts with a 4, this will go to the top of just about everyone's hot hatch wish list.
Seriously? It would be utterly hideous! As it is, even with 300bhp, each tyre is having to cope with 30 lbft more than the tyres on a GT-R. No matter how clever you get with the front suspension and diff, it's going to be a laity handful with little or none of the finesse of the Type Rs of old. Part of their accuracy came from not actually having enough torque to really bother the front end, as well as razor sharp NA throttle response and a linear rise in torque. I'm expecting to read some disappointing reviews of this unless Honda have performed a miracle....which they ARE capable of.When will Honda gets its sh*t together. Two local dealerships closed down. This car has been on the cards for years.
When it was first announced, it was going to have a few more hp and a fraction cut from the 0-60 time. Big deal Honda.
Then they realised that the competition had moved on. What they will eventually launch you can bet will be short of the mark having pondered for too long. Elephant in the room being the new Focus RS. Then the styling, which when most manufacturers are producing cars a little more subtle Honda decides to create something that looks like it has driven through Halfords. If it is going to carry any credibility at all with its 4 pipes and rear wing then they are going to have to pull something special out of the bag.
I note with interest they have a top speed announcement but not a 0-60 announcement. Why not Honda?
When it was first announced, it was going to have a few more hp and a fraction cut from the 0-60 time. Big deal Honda.
Then they realised that the competition had moved on. What they will eventually launch you can bet will be short of the mark having pondered for too long. Elephant in the room being the new Focus RS. Then the styling, which when most manufacturers are producing cars a little more subtle Honda decides to create something that looks like it has driven through Halfords. If it is going to carry any credibility at all with its 4 pipes and rear wing then they are going to have to pull something special out of the bag.
I note with interest they have a top speed announcement but not a 0-60 announcement. Why not Honda?
Will be really interested to see what the final product is like. Honda has taken far to long to get this to market, probably partly due to their bold Ring claim and not wanting to loose face. On the back of that, I'm hoping for some interesting engineering in order for them to achieve their claim.
As for the styling, will have to see it in the metal but there will be nothing for it to compete with now Ford have toned down the RS.
As for the styling, will have to see it in the metal but there will be nothing for it to compete with now Ford have toned down the RS.
pacdes said:
When will Honda gets its sh*t together. Two local dealerships closed down. This car has been on the cards for years.
When it was first announced, it was going to have a few more hp and a fraction cut from the 0-60 time. Big deal Honda.
Then they realised that the competition had moved on. What they will eventually launch you can bet will be short of the mark having pondered for too long. Elephant in the room being the new Focus RS. Then the styling, which when most manufacturers are producing cars a little more subtle Honda decides to create something that looks like it has driven through Halfords. If it is going to carry any credibility at all with its 4 pipes and rear wing then they are going to have to pull something special out of the bag.
I note with interest they have a top speed announcement but not a 0-60 announcement. Why not Honda?
You sound a bit like I felt, when the rumour was that it 'only' had 280ps! Honda said it will be the fastest FWD car around the ring, and it will be. To get to 167mph I've estimated it needs at least 340ps. Unless it's limited to 167mph, and then I've wasted my time. When it was first announced, it was going to have a few more hp and a fraction cut from the 0-60 time. Big deal Honda.
Then they realised that the competition had moved on. What they will eventually launch you can bet will be short of the mark having pondered for too long. Elephant in the room being the new Focus RS. Then the styling, which when most manufacturers are producing cars a little more subtle Honda decides to create something that looks like it has driven through Halfords. If it is going to carry any credibility at all with its 4 pipes and rear wing then they are going to have to pull something special out of the bag.
I note with interest they have a top speed announcement but not a 0-60 announcement. Why not Honda?
Even if they don't give it 'Cup' tyres, the ring is mainly high speed corners with lots of crests, cambers and dips. The GT-R was designed to excel there, and so is this.
The Civic Type R looks like it will use the same 'tricks' with adaptive damping (probably), zero lift from downforce generated by the wing and splitter (definitely). It also looks like it has GT-R like wing vents, that let turbulent air out of the wheel wells smoothly, so there's less drag/lift. They also allow them to widen the track to give it more grip and stability. All of this will help it be really fast with 350-360ps.
If it comes on normal road tyres, it will also be far faster when it's really wet.iloveboost said:
You sound a bit like I felt, when the rumour was that it 'only' had 280ps! Honda said it will be the fastest FWD car around the ring, and it will be. To get to 167mph I've estimated it needs at least 340ps. Unless it's limited to 167mph, and then I've wasted my time.
Based on an FN2 needing 201ps to make 146mph, my back of a fag packet calculation would be (167/146)^3 * 201 which gives almost 301ps. What assumptions did you make?What I can't work out is why Honda are spending so much effort on this car.
The EP3 sold pretty well didn't it ? the FN2 seemingly less so.
The confusing thing is the rest of the Honda range is a bit beige isn't it ? Ford have its ST models, which could lead to an RS or Mustang. Vauxhall have the VXRs, VW have GTIs & Rs, Audi S and RS models and so on.
All Honda have in the performance stakes is this and the NSX. Its not like they are making an entire sub-brand out of these things.
Surely they could have put out a hot hatch with much less fuss and R&D cost by now ?
Aside from all that, comparing ring lap times is all very well, but this has sod all to do with driving the new RS, Civic, Golf, Astra, 1 series or whatever else on the road. All of these cars are going to be more than competent on-road and I doubt if any one car will make your journey significantly quicker than the others. They are all within 10% of each other power wise and I suspect weights aren't that far out either. Its a bit like comparing two top spec PCs, but only ever playing solitaire on it.
Not sure on this car really, I've previously criticised the Golf R/M135i/Leon and others for being rather mundane and not standing out enough in the looks department, which I still maintain, but I can't say I like the Civic either, it looks like all those Saxos that were going around a few years ago with bumpers, skirts and spoilers all over the place. Maybe I'm just awkward
The EP3 sold pretty well didn't it ? the FN2 seemingly less so.
The confusing thing is the rest of the Honda range is a bit beige isn't it ? Ford have its ST models, which could lead to an RS or Mustang. Vauxhall have the VXRs, VW have GTIs & Rs, Audi S and RS models and so on.
All Honda have in the performance stakes is this and the NSX. Its not like they are making an entire sub-brand out of these things.
Surely they could have put out a hot hatch with much less fuss and R&D cost by now ?
Aside from all that, comparing ring lap times is all very well, but this has sod all to do with driving the new RS, Civic, Golf, Astra, 1 series or whatever else on the road. All of these cars are going to be more than competent on-road and I doubt if any one car will make your journey significantly quicker than the others. They are all within 10% of each other power wise and I suspect weights aren't that far out either. Its a bit like comparing two top spec PCs, but only ever playing solitaire on it.
Not sure on this car really, I've previously criticised the Golf R/M135i/Leon and others for being rather mundane and not standing out enough in the looks department, which I still maintain, but I can't say I like the Civic either, it looks like all those Saxos that were going around a few years ago with bumpers, skirts and spoilers all over the place. Maybe I'm just awkward
Nope have to agree, VERY late to the party and with iffy looks to boot. Yes the alternatives are almost sleep inducing in how boring they are but this is too far the other way and it looks like a 17 year old me's wet dream, except I'm not 17 any more and 17 year old's won't be able to afford a £30k hot hatch anyway.
However the Japanese have always had a slightly skewed sense of "style" and I'll forgive all if Honda somehow manage to pull it out of the bag and this car drives sensationally. I'm not holding my breath at this point though.
However the Japanese have always had a slightly skewed sense of "style" and I'll forgive all if Honda somehow manage to pull it out of the bag and this car drives sensationally. I'm not holding my breath at this point though.
Crafty_ said:
What I can't work out is why Honda are spending so much effort on this car.
The EP3 sold pretty well didn't it ? the FN2 seemingly less so.
The confusing thing is the rest of the Honda range is a bit beige isn't it ? Ford have its ST models, which could lead to an RS or Mustang. Vauxhall have the VXRs, VW have GTIs & Rs, Audi S and RS models and so on.
All Honda have in the performance stakes is this and the NSX. Its not like they are making an entire sub-brand out of these things.
Surely they could have put out a hot hatch with much less fuss and R&D cost by now ?
It's the Japanese way. They've made a statement and they must deliver. They can't be seen to lose face. The irony is that Honda had their Type S brand but blew its credibility on three door versions of the last 5 door Civic, with no additional power or engineering to separate it off. By not delivering a Type S with this generation they've thrown it away before the Type R comes along.The EP3 sold pretty well didn't it ? the FN2 seemingly less so.
The confusing thing is the rest of the Honda range is a bit beige isn't it ? Ford have its ST models, which could lead to an RS or Mustang. Vauxhall have the VXRs, VW have GTIs & Rs, Audi S and RS models and so on.
All Honda have in the performance stakes is this and the NSX. Its not like they are making an entire sub-brand out of these things.
Surely they could have put out a hot hatch with much less fuss and R&D cost by now ?
Crafty_ said:
Not sure on this car really, I've previously criticised the Golf R/M135i/Leon and others for being rather mundane and not standing out enough in the looks department, which I still maintain, but I can't say I like the Civic either, it looks like all those Saxos that were going around a few years ago with bumpers, skirts and spoilers all over the place. Maybe I'm just awkward
You're just awkward. 
The problem is that everything based on a family car will probably be a styling compromise; very few cars will tread the line between obscurity and chav very well and still be a practical hatchback. Thank goodness there's some variety though, else Golf GTi and Golf R would dominate a hot hatch monoculture. Vive la difference.
I'll reserve judgement until we see it in its totality, and someone's driven it. I really want Honda to not screw this up.
Not the first time someone has agreed with my awkwardness 
I think there is a balance to strike. The current golfs all look the same, the leon is as bad, even the M135 is barely any different.
You can make a car stand out without being over the top, e.g.
Boggo:
Cupra R
(I'll get slated for this one I expect...)
Boggo (well, sort of, 5 door ones look even 'worse':
VXR:
The Golfs etc all look like boggo ones, they're not different enough. From what we've seen of the Civic thus far its too over the top. I think there is a happy medium that none of the current models meet.
I think there is a balance to strike. The current golfs all look the same, the leon is as bad, even the M135 is barely any different.
You can make a car stand out without being over the top, e.g.
Boggo:
Cupra R
(I'll get slated for this one I expect...)
Boggo (well, sort of, 5 door ones look even 'worse':
VXR:
The Golfs etc all look like boggo ones, they're not different enough. From what we've seen of the Civic thus far its too over the top. I think there is a happy medium that none of the current models meet.
shoestring7 said:
Big alloys: check
Body kit: check
Lowered 'stance': check
A few badges: check
Exhaust Bling: check.
Seems like go-fast Golfs use an identical template to Seat and Vauxhall
SS7
Except most VAG stuff, even boggo ones already come specced with this stuff so that people can pretend they are driving a GTI\RS for half the price so it's difficult for the hotter versions to stand out. Either stop whoring out S-Line kits to all and sundry (which will never happen) or make the hot versions, well a bit hotter. Body kit: check
Lowered 'stance': check
A few badges: check
Exhaust Bling: check.
Seems like go-fast Golfs use an identical template to Seat and Vauxhall
SS7
I admit their is a fine line between subtle and OTT in styling but none of the current manufacturers seem to have got it right yet IMO. The Germans tend to be ultra safe\boring whereas the Japanese seem to be hell bent on putting Halfords out of business. The only manufacturer who IMO has got the balance of subtle and aggressive right (from what I can see of the pictures) is Ford with their new Focus RS.
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