Where are all the tiny hot hatches.
Discussion
I'm having a terrible time trying to find a new car I like. My daily driver is a clio 172cup (172hp, 1010kg) that I bought new 12 years ago. I'm now looking for a new car and am really struggling to find anything that appeals to me at all. WRX STI, Astra VXR, Golf R are what I'm looking at now but all are porkers compared to the cup. I like the sound of the STI because it has been described in many reviews as "old school", although the 2.5 engine has a bad rep. Golf looks good but easy to option it up to £35k which I don't really want to do. Astra VXR has mech diff, 280hp and can easily be found for way under list price (23k for black one with Aero pack), but where are all the SMALL, genuinely quick cars now? so sad.
Put simply, no one is buying a vw up, a skoda citigo, a c1, a toyota aygo, because they like that particular car, they are buying it because it's the small cheap car that is in their budget or the one from the manufacturer they like.
No one has ever uttered the words i love the new vw up, but i'm not a fan of the polo, well someone probably has, my gf comes out with retarded s
t like that about cars all the time, but no rational person who if actually going to buy has ever said that, and nor have they ever said, i really want the ds3, but it's just too big so i'm going for the c1 (with the same above exceptions)
The fiat 500 is quite unique really, people are choosing that because they actually like it, it's an iconic car design, i don't think anything else in that class is, which is why the abarth version is so much quicker than anything else.
If you are looking for something with more power, i think you may as well forget it, these are small engined light, fwd cars, they are already at the limit of what they can do off the line, what they need to be quicker is not more power, but more traction, and that is a lot harder to achieve without changing the nature of the car.
No one has ever uttered the words i love the new vw up, but i'm not a fan of the polo, well someone probably has, my gf comes out with retarded s
t like that about cars all the time, but no rational person who if actually going to buy has ever said that, and nor have they ever said, i really want the ds3, but it's just too big so i'm going for the c1 (with the same above exceptions)The fiat 500 is quite unique really, people are choosing that because they actually like it, it's an iconic car design, i don't think anything else in that class is, which is why the abarth version is so much quicker than anything else.
If you are looking for something with more power, i think you may as well forget it, these are small engined light, fwd cars, they are already at the limit of what they can do off the line, what they need to be quicker is not more power, but more traction, and that is a lot harder to achieve without changing the nature of the car.
HairbearTE said:
I'm having a terrible time trying to find a new car I like. My daily driver is a clio 172cup (172hp, 1010kg) that I bought new 12 years ago. I'm now looking for a new car and am really struggling to find anything that appeals to me at all. WRX STI, Astra VXR, Golf R are what I'm looking at now but all are porkers compared to the cup. I like the sound of the STI because it has been described in many reviews as "old school", although the 2.5 engine has a bad rep. Golf looks good but easy to option it up to £35k which I don't really want to do. Astra VXR has mech diff, 280hp and can easily be found for way under list price (23k for black one with Aero pack), but where are all the SMALL, genuinely quick cars now? so sad.
What about the new fiesta st?quiraing said:
Interesting thread.
What about modern equivalent to simple basic rwd cars such as Mk1 Escort RS1600, RS2000, Chevette HS, Firenza and Magnum 2.3s, Lotus Sunbeams, Toyota Corolla Coupe 16v with lsd, Dolomite Sprint, etc? The BMW 1 or 3 series seems to be all there is.
Very interesting, but there is no choice any more (C class or Toyobaru BRZ/86 excepted) so I have had 4 BMW's in the last decade!What about modern equivalent to simple basic rwd cars such as Mk1 Escort RS1600, RS2000, Chevette HS, Firenza and Magnum 2.3s, Lotus Sunbeams, Toyota Corolla Coupe 16v with lsd, Dolomite Sprint, etc? The BMW 1 or 3 series seems to be all there is.
My previous cars include MK II Cortina, Fiat 125, Rover P6 3500S, Fiat 132 1800ES, MK II Granada, MK II RS2000, Capri Injection x 2, Cavalier Sportshatch, Granada Scorpio, Merc 280E, Sierra Sapphire 2.0GLSi, Merc 190E, Merc C280 - not hard to spot the one thing they all had in common!
But now there is going to be a FWD 1 series even that will doubtless fail to be an option - so top marks for Jaguar with the XE, and maybe too for Alfa if they ever do release an RWD competitor. (Mind you 2 Fiats killed any desire I ever had for Italian cars not on a lease and still in warranty)!
What's your opinion on a hot hatches specs? I mean we have classics like the 205Gti, the Clio 16v, Fiesta Xr2i and VW Golf GTi, most of which had 120-130 bhp and front wheel drive or we can head towards the likes of the Nissmo Pulsar and A45 AMG with four wheel drive 280+ bhp and a price tag that will make your eyes water.
I don't know about the OP but I think it comes back to the size/weight issue we see all the time now.
Despite my earlier post I don't actually hate everything FWD, I have had a MK I Golf GTi, Mk II GTi 16V and an early Leon Cupra that were all great cars.
But a MK I Golf GTi must be smaller and lighter than an Up, apart from loads more powerful!
It just seems to me the buying public are more interested in Bluetooth, self-parking and cr*p like that then in actual driving pleasure, so nobody makes that sort of car any more.
Sad really!
Despite my earlier post I don't actually hate everything FWD, I have had a MK I Golf GTi, Mk II GTi 16V and an early Leon Cupra that were all great cars.
But a MK I Golf GTi must be smaller and lighter than an Up, apart from loads more powerful!
It just seems to me the buying public are more interested in Bluetooth, self-parking and cr*p like that then in actual driving pleasure, so nobody makes that sort of car any more.
Sad really!
s m said:
I was well over 30 when I got a new Saxo VTS - the insurance deal (2 years free ), discounts/trade in offer combined with the driving experience made it a much better deal than the 106 Gti and Puma 1.7 ( although I tried them )
I never paid a moments thought to the crash protection, but then, nor would I now
It wasn't meant as a dig, I remember it being a hell of a deal at the time.I never paid a moments thought to the crash protection, but then, nor would I now
My observation is that the tiny hatches that everyone remembers that are deemed flimsy don't weigh a huge amount less than the modern equivalents that meet the better standards whilst only sacrificing a bit in bhp/tonne.
The C2 VTS appears a barrel of laughs with similar performance range of the saxo/106 , although even that is a generation old now.
Mk1 Golf was 790kgs dry, 110bhp, so about 20% more power to weight than the UP but hardly a rocket ship by modern standards.
Major difference is in tyres and handling the UP would spank the Golf down a tarmac special stage but will probably feel a lot less involved, the only real way of going faster in 1975 though would have required you having a very hefty wallet.
Major difference is in tyres and handling the UP would spank the Golf down a tarmac special stage but will probably feel a lot less involved, the only real way of going faster in 1975 though would have required you having a very hefty wallet.
egor110 said:
What about the new fiesta st?
I have thought of that. A friend drove a new one last year and said it was good. I'm not the worlds biggest ford fan but had an XR2 when I was 18 (many years ago..) That car was fun at the time. I just wish the manufacturers would do a basic stripped out version of all these cars for those who don't want an electric everything to play with. daveinhampshire said:
The sort of tinny crap they used to sell just wouldn't cut the mustard these days. People want all the gadgets even in a supermini, once that lot's in you'll not get away with anything less than 200bhp.
I do miss the old hot hatches but I wouldn't want one again.
I tend to agree, I would love to have my old 205 GTi back or the MkII Golf GTi as a second car not as a daily runner these days.I do miss the old hot hatches but I wouldn't want one again.
Rightly or wrongly I want a bit more comfort now, not necessarily gadgets, but then that's just me, perhaps there should be a choice out there for those that want the modern version on the 106 Rallye
HairbearTE said:
egor110 said:
What about the new fiesta st?
I have thought of that. A friend drove a new one last year and said it was good. I'm not the worlds biggest ford fan but had an XR2 when I was 18 (many years ago..) That car was fun at the time. I just wish the manufacturers would do a basic stripped out version of all these cars for those who don't want an electric everything to play with. 
kambites said:
HairbearTE said:
egor110 said:
What about the new fiesta st?
I have thought of that. A friend drove a new one last year and said it was good. I'm not the worlds biggest ford fan but had an XR2 when I was 18 (many years ago..) That car was fun at the time. I just wish the manufacturers would do a basic stripped out version of all these cars for those who don't want an electric everything to play with. I've been thinking about the exact same thing, recently.
That's why I have just bought a 172 that's been lightly breathed on, for some fun, and a 42,000 mile Clio Williams as they just won't make cars like that again.
Between the two of them, that's about as much fun as I feel you can safely have on the road and that's from someone who had an early LOI in for a GT4.
A Clio V6 (I seem to like Clios) may join them soo, almost as a curiosity but there are no, modern hot hatches that interest me.
I loved my 205 GTis and would certainly consider a restored example as some point.
The 'family' car can have all the gadgets, give me 1,000kg and 150bhp with an FM radio every time!
That's why I have just bought a 172 that's been lightly breathed on, for some fun, and a 42,000 mile Clio Williams as they just won't make cars like that again.
Between the two of them, that's about as much fun as I feel you can safely have on the road and that's from someone who had an early LOI in for a GT4.
A Clio V6 (I seem to like Clios) may join them soo, almost as a curiosity but there are no, modern hot hatches that interest me.
I loved my 205 GTis and would certainly consider a restored example as some point.
The 'family' car can have all the gadgets, give me 1,000kg and 150bhp with an FM radio every time!
I saw a huge roadside advertising poster for the Corsa earlier.
It's main selling point appeared to be heated seats -something I have not once missed in the 3 winters since selling my old car that was so equipped (only any use in cars with leather seats, but hardly necessary in NW England ....a bit like winter tyres).
If that's what punters think they need, then light cars are not going to be in demand
It's main selling point appeared to be heated seats -something I have not once missed in the 3 winters since selling my old car that was so equipped (only any use in cars with leather seats, but hardly necessary in NW England ....a bit like winter tyres).
If that's what punters think they need, then light cars are not going to be in demand
EnthusiastOwned said:
Article from 3 years ago about a car that still doesn't exist?TTwiggy said:
Isn't a Mountune Fiesta ST touching 200bhp? I imagine cost is the driving factor. If you want 200 horses you aren't going to get it for £99pcm on a lease deal
Good car, my girlfriend has one - total hoot to drive (and the car) :PSwift Sport is another good shout as is the Twingo 133 which has been mentioned, lets face it, with the rules and regulations that manufacturers must adhere to these days, the totally lightweight chuckable cars of days gone by are simply not feasible, that isn't to say this segment of the market is dead though, there are some cracking small cars available both used and new.
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