RE: Lotus Evora 400
Discussion
kambites said:
There certainly was a period where British journalists were ridiculously pro-British... these days I think it's gone the other way, though; it's almost as if they feel they aren't allowed to like British cars because people will call their integrity into question.
I've never been particularly pro-British. Most British engineered products (including the cars) built in my life-time have been utterly woeful. However, I fail to see how the Evora can be considered objectively "over-priced" when it's the best part of twenty grand cheaper than the obvious competition (the 991 C2).
I agree with this completely. I don't care if something is or isn't British, I guess it's nice to support 'our' industry but really I want to buy what I consider to be the best regardless of where it's from. I've never been particularly pro-British. Most British engineered products (including the cars) built in my life-time have been utterly woeful. However, I fail to see how the Evora can be considered objectively "over-priced" when it's the best part of twenty grand cheaper than the obvious competition (the 991 C2).
As many people on this thread have already said, it must be a problem with perception. People seem to not be able to accept that the Lotus is a proper Porsche competitor. I have no idea how Lotus can change that, when people get the idea that a particular brand should be a particular price it's really, really difficult to change that.
Claudia Skies said:
Well, I for one think he's hit the nail right on the head.
What, lambasting a car he hasn't driven and extolling the virtues of one he hasn't driven either?Makes sense...if your job depends on appealing to the wider audience...
The 'patriotic' stuff is self-evident, I think most grown ups can see through stuff like this quite easily, plus or minus. Having said that, why not have a little national pride after all, just don't over egg the pudding.
otolith said:
Harris talks about objectivity, and says it is overpriced compared to a Cayman GT4. OK - so, in objective terms, how can the GT4 possibly be worth near as damn it 60% more money than a base Cayman? It sure as hell doesn't cost Porsche anywhere near as much as that extra to make it. He also says that it looks too much like a 2009 Evora - and a 2015 Cayman doesn't look a lot like a 2006 one?
The gist of his article is that journalists judge cars too much by where they are from rather than their intrinsic merits. I think he is doing exactly that. He hasn't even sat in the bloody thing yet, let alone driven it.
He's talking bThe gist of his article is that journalists judge cars too much by where they are from rather than their intrinsic merits. I think he is doing exactly that. He hasn't even sat in the bloody thing yet, let alone driven it.
ks. A GT4 is a 2 seater.Why does everyone have a w
k over porsche? Good cars, but the GT4 is a limited run thing on purpose, it doesn't compete with the Evora 400 BUT it does compete with the Exige V6 Cup, which would destroy it, on most tracks, at the hands of a good driver.The Evora 400 competes with the 991 C2S, for 30k less.
kbf1981 said:
The Evora 400 competes with the 991 C2S, for 30k less.
In terms of performance numbers, maybe but in all other respects I really don't think it does though. The 991 isn't a sports car, it's a GT. It looks expensive. It looks good parked in the golf / tennis club car park, it confirms to that set of people your status in life. You could pick up your wife / date in her evening dress to go to a high end restaurant, that's the sort of image the 991 has. It also goes pretty damn well if you are on your own one Sunday morning and want to go for a spirited drive.The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
otolith said:
The gist of his article is that journalists judge cars too much by where they are from rather than their intrinsic merits. I think he is doing exactly that. He hasn't even sat in the bloody thing yet, let alone driven it.
Agree. Also think that that 'patriotism' he sees basically just means writing to please an audience. He has not, IMO, been very honest with that bit (or does not realize). In a German mag, a VAG box, BMW or Merc will always win the group test. French mag compares super minis? PSA or Renault car guaranteed winner. That is what the majority of readers are driving, FFS. People are just not interested in buying a publication that repeatedly tells them they are stupid because they got the wrong product.
Where he falls short of his own standards, is, IMO the Hethel vs. Zuffenhausen debate. I doubt Lotus need the press telling them how lacking their products are, objectively, on all the points that are not directly related to the driving experience. They know all about that. But they can't, overnight, create 40 times more dealerships, spend billions on NVH, parts availability and QC, and at the same time make the bloody things EU6 compliant plus play the test so well that results are on the CO2 level of a Fiat Twinair. Just impossible.
No. What I think good motor journalism would need to continue to do, is to point out that the mass produced stuff comes with its share of downsides as well. Mainly, a lack of focus. VAG could make us a 300 hp improved Elise for 25k and still make a healthy profit. But they will never do such a thing, because people will lift mid corner. And the car would rattle a bit. And need servicing once a year. And all of that would make bad mainstream press.
But the turnip farmers keep making these things. Just at a more difficult to stomach price. And they should be praised for that. A lot. That's not nationalism. Just common sense and a love for purism.
EK993 said:
kbf1981 said:
The Evora 400 competes with the 991 C2S, for 30k less.
In terms of performance numbers, maybe but in all other respects I really don't think it does though. The 991 isn't a sports car, it's a GT. It looks expensive. It looks good parked in the golf / tennis club car park, it confirms to that set of people your status in life. You could pick up your wife / date in her evening dress to go to a high end restaurant, that's the sort of image the 991 has. It also goes pretty damn well if you are on your own one Sunday morning and want to go for a spirited drive.The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
SidewaysSi said:
I would question if those who purchase non-GT 991s are car enthusiasts at all.
They are, of course, a mixture, as are the buyers of any sporty marque (including Lotus). However, I'd say the vast majority of 911 buyers clearly aren't driving enthusiasts simply because Porsche sell vastly more 911s than there are driving enthusiasts. That doesn't mean they aren't a very good car for a driving enthusiast to buy, though; given that their remit these days is more GT than sports car, they drive amazingly well.
If I ever need a 2+2, I'll probably end up buying a 911C2, mostly because the Evora's residuals look likely to keep it out of my price range.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th February 08:18
kambites said:
SidewaysSi said:
I would question if those who purchase non-GT 991s are car enthusiasts at all.
They are, of course, a mixture, as are the buyers of any sporty marque (including Lotus). However, I'd say the vast majority of 911 buyers clearly aren't driving enthusiasts simply because Porsche sell vastly more 911s than there are driving enthusiasts. That doesn't mean they aren't a very good car for a driving enthusiast to buy, though; given that their remit these days is more GT than sports car, they drive amazingly well.
If I ever need a 2+2, I'll probably end up buying a 911C2, mostly because the Evora's residuals look likely to keep it out of my price range.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 24th February 08:18
SidewaysSi said:
Very true. However I think the 991 offers far less for the true enthusiast than any previous 911, most notably the 997.
I felt the same about the 997 vs the 996 but that's a very personal thing. Even if the focus has shifted slightly away from keen drivers, they're all still very good cars in their own ways. EK993 said:
In terms of performance numbers, maybe but in all other respects I really don't think it does though. The 991 isn't a sports car, it's a GT. It looks expensive. It looks good parked in the golf / tennis club car park, it confirms to that set of people your status in life. You could pick up your wife / date in her evening dress to go to a high end restaurant, that's the sort of image the 991 has. It also goes pretty damn well if you are on your own one Sunday morning and want to go for a spirited drive.
The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
Lots of good points there, the Evora and the Porsche are similar but they're not the same and consequently so are the people that each appeals to. Seven years ago I went from an Exige to a 997, needed the +2, the Porsche was good fun at first, but I knew early on that it wasn't for me. It suited my needs at the time, ended up keeping it for three years, quite a few mechanical/electrical issues in that time, nothing major. The Porsche confirmed what I personally enjoy in a sports car (or sporty GT) and those were the things that Lotus excel at.The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
I've come very close to buying an Evora over the last few years, but decided to get a sensible family car and a Caterham instead. The Evora 400 is very very tempting, but I appreciate that's a minority view outside of PH.
Dick Seaman said:
EK993 said:
In terms of performance numbers, maybe but in all other respects I really don't think it does though. The 991 isn't a sports car, it's a GT. It looks expensive. It looks good parked in the golf / tennis club car park, it confirms to that set of people your status in life. You could pick up your wife / date in her evening dress to go to a high end restaurant, that's the sort of image the 991 has. It also goes pretty damn well if you are on your own one Sunday morning and want to go for a spirited drive.
The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
Lots of good points there, the Evora and the Porsche are similar but they're not the same and consequently so are the people that each appeals to. Seven years ago I went from an Exige to a 997, needed the +2, the Porsche was good fun at first, but I knew early on that it wasn't for me. It suited my needs at the time, ended up keeping it for three years, quite a few mechanical/electrical issues in that time, nothing major. The Porsche confirmed what I personally enjoy in a sports car (or sporty GT) and those were the things that Lotus excel at.The Evora is first and foremost a driving machine. It lacks all the glamour and status of a 991. It also looks good to a very select group of people, and ticks the most important box for them of being the best dynamically in terms of performance and handling - car enthusiasts, mainly men for whom cars are a way of life, not something that is first and foremost a status symbol.
People who buy Porsche generally don't care that Lotus might be 10% (or whatever) better in the dynamic department as quite frankly they would never drive the car to its limit on the road to experience the difference.
It's difficult for PH enthusiasts to come to terms with the fact that other "general" car enthusiasts don't assign the same level of importance to ultimate low weight and ultimate performance, that there can be other elements of a car that are more important. They are still car enthusiasts, just not to such a deep level as those that hang around car forums and talk about handling and performance all day....
I've come very close to buying an Evora over the last few years, but decided to get a sensible family car and a Caterham instead. The Evora 400 is very very tempting, but I appreciate that's a minority view outside of PH.
We're all interested in different things in cars, and to be honest I feel just as far removed from those Porsche owners described above as I do the average PHer. Lotus don't seem to have much trouble making cars that drive beautifully, but it's difficult to pin down the requirements of the 911/Maserati crowd. A good analogy is a conversation I had with a friend last week, when I was extolling the virtues of a MINI hire car that I had: he said he'd rather have an Alfa from that sector (a Mito presumably), and even though he'd driven neither he was completely certain about the Alfa, based on the extensive racing heritage, the styling and the sound it made from its engine - any aspect of steering feel, chassis balance, or even ergonomics, were unimportant; now this is someone I trust to always be sincere, and I suspect his opinion is very common. I therefore feel that Lotus will have a very difficult job attracting Porsche buyers because: a) they don't have the thoroughbred in-house engine and b) their racing heritage, whilst being very successful and filling a good part of my bookshelf, is a geeky one of British ingenuity, lightweight and fragility, rather than a teutonic Alfred Neubauer style one of clinical perfectionism six sigma style (which appeals to the average Porsche owner for obvious reasons!!). I think it's good for Lotus to seek out Porsche customers, but they must understand that much of what they seek they'll never be able to grasp because it's unattainable by anybody, it's a soul and image that one can't create. I think Lotus need a dual focus on what makes them great (as typified by the current line up of cars) and improving in areas that they have hitherto been criticised for (lack of power, lack of build quality etc). By looking at the current range and at their steady plans for change under new management, I think they're doing just that, and I wish them the best of luck. If anyone still criticises Lotus, I would urge them to drive an Exige V6 or an Evora S before they say another word
Kolbenkopp said:
VAG could make us a 300 hp improved Elise for 25k and still make a healthy profit. But they will never do such a thing, because people will lift mid corner. And the car would rattle a bit. And need servicing once a year. And all of that would make bad mainstream press.
I disagree, gone are the days of sports cars being that cheap. Look at the MX-5 and Toyota/Subaru. They're moved on, despite a % of PH seeming to think we should still get TVR/ Nobles etc at that price. There is a reason that there is nothing around that price range now that fulfills those criteria.NRS said:
Kolbenkopp said:
VAG could make us a 300 hp improved Elise for 25k and still make a healthy profit. But they will never do such a thing, because people will lift mid corner. And the car would rattle a bit. And need servicing once a year. And all of that would make bad mainstream press.
I disagree, gone are the days of sports cars being that cheap. Look at the MX-5 and Toyota/Subaru. They're moved on, despite a % of PH seeming to think we should still get TVR/ Nobles etc at that price. There is a reason that there is nothing around that price range now that fulfills those criteria.Craikeybaby said:
NRS said:
Kolbenkopp said:
VAG could make us a 300 hp improved Elise for 25k and still make a healthy profit. But they will never do such a thing, because people will lift mid corner. And the car would rattle a bit. And need servicing once a year. And all of that would make bad mainstream press.
I disagree, gone are the days of sports cars being that cheap. Look at the MX-5 and Toyota/Subaru. They're moved on, despite a % of PH seeming to think we should still get TVR/ Nobles etc at that price. There is a reason that there is nothing around that price range now that fulfills those criteria.NRS said:
You cannot get a sports car for 25k that will be 300bhp, despite everyone thinking you should. Therefore I don't think VAG could offer it and make a profit, which is what the poster said.
The 25k/300hp figure was not really the point I was trying to make -- but for the sake of the argument, a few prices. MX5, BRZ and W3 MR2 ~ 20k, Leon Cupra ~ 27k, Zenos E10S ~ 30k.Now slot in the hypothetical VAG mid-engined wonder somewhere between the MR2 and the Zenos. Mind you this would be a car with 0 standard equipment. As basic as law allows, no ICE, no xenon lights, switch gear out of a Skoda Citigo, no soft touch plastics, no carpets, simplistic roof (that is even allowed to leak a bit in extreme situations), just the 'good enough' parts bin kit where ever it does not compromise the driving experience.
Another way to look at it: take the current Boxster that starts at 39k. Remove everything not related to driving, including the associated development and testing costs. The option list is now only half a page long. Then replace the expensive flat 6 with a plain 2.0 TSI engine mated to a simple 5 speed gear box.
I don't see why this could not be done at 25k/300hp, from a technical perspective and with the purchasing power of an outfit like VAG. Easy, methinks.
But the big shops can't do that. Too much pressure to make a 'responsible' product, resulting in average, compromised kit. Too much risk makes the bean counters antsy and the stock holders unhappy. And the market watchers in HQ say only a handful of people would want something as hard core as that anyway. Just not going to happen...
The small outfits such as Lotus are on the different side of the problem. They only have a tiny fraction of the resources, but have the liberty of making what ever they like with the little that is available. Lo and behold, some decide to focus on everything that makes the driving experience as involving as possible.
We should make little turnip shaped shrines, honoring their dedication to values straight out of the PH Old Testament. And not blame them for not being able to out-Porsche the Germans at their game.
I drove the 997 at Porsche's Silverstone facility, and travelled there and back in one belonging to my friend. I was impressed by it, respected it, but didn't desire it. That's my experience of Porsche generally, and that's why I'd rather own a Lotus while entirety understanding why most people would prefer a Porsche.
Kolbenkopp said:
NRS said:
You cannot get a sports car for 25k that will be 300bhp, despite everyone thinking you should. Therefore I don't think VAG could offer it and make a profit, which is what the poster said.
The 25k/300hp figure was not really the point I was trying to make -- but for the sake of the argument, a few prices. MX5, BRZ and W3 MR2 ~ 20k, Leon Cupra ~ 27k, Zenos E10S ~ 30k.Now slot in the hypothetical VAG mid-engined wonder somewhere between the MR2 and the Zenos. Mind you this would be a car with 0 standard equipment. As basic as law allows, no ICE, no xenon lights, switch gear out of a Skoda Citigo, no soft touch plastics, no carpets, simplistic roof (that is even allowed to leak a bit in extreme situations), just the 'good enough' parts bin kit where ever it does not compromise the driving experience.
Another way to look at it: take the current Boxster that starts at 39k. Remove everything not related to driving, including the associated development and testing costs. The option list is now only half a page long. Then replace the expensive flat 6 with a plain 2.0 TSI engine mated to a simple 5 speed gear box.
I don't see why this could not be done at 25k/300hp, from a technical perspective and with the purchasing power of an outfit like VAG. Easy, methinks.
But the big shops can't do that. Too much pressure to make a 'responsible' product, resulting in average, compromised kit. Too much risk makes the bean counters antsy and the stock holders unhappy. And the market watchers in HQ say only a handful of people would want something as hard core as that anyway. Just not going to happen...
The small outfits such as Lotus are on the different side of the problem. They only have a tiny fraction of the resources, but have the liberty of making what ever they like with the little that is available. Lo and behold, some decide to focus on everything that makes the driving experience as involving as possible.
We should make little turnip shaped shrines, honoring their dedication to values straight out of the PH Old Testament. And not blame them for not being able to out-Porsche the Germans at their game.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff