RE: Lotus Evora 400

[RobM77]

Claudia Skies said:

NRS said:

There's just no market for sports cars these days really.

That is, I think, an important point. People are queuing up to splash £70k on a huge 4x4 instead.

As I think I mentioned earlier, Evo had an editorial piece from Harry last year on the annual sales of RR Evoques being greater than all the European sports car manufacturers put together. I had to look it up to check, but he was right by quite a long way. That's just one particular model of SUV selling more than all the 911s, Caymans, Boxsters, Elises, Exiges, 458s, F12s, Vantages, DB9s etc put together! Even Porsche themselves only have 40% of their sales as sports cars as per the last sales figures (comprising the 911, Cayman and Boxster).

As for Lotus, well they not only just sell sports cars, which already puts them on the edge of viability in today's market, but they also don't appeal to SUV/saloon buyers at all, unlike the luxury cars that Porsche build (some of the press FT actually classify Porsche as a luxury car maker when they report these figures, which I thought was rather revealing), which have plenty of cross-over elements from luxury cars to appeal to the coffee slurping lethargic modern car buyer.

[stuno1]

RobM77 said:

As I think I mentioned earlier, Evo had an editorial piece from Harry last year on the annual sales of RR Evoques being greater than all the European sports car manufacturers put together. I had to look it up to check, but he was right by quite a long way. That's just one particular model of SUV selling more than all the 911s, Caymans, Boxsters, Elises, Exiges, 458s, F12s, Vantages, DB9s etc put together! Even Porsche themselves only have 40% of their sales as sports cars as per the last sales figures (comprising the 911, Cayman and Boxster).

As for Lotus, well they not only just sell sports cars, which already puts them on the edge of viability in today's market, but they also don't appeal to SUV/saloon buyers at all, unlike the luxury cars that Porsche build (some of the press FT actually classify Porsche as a luxury car maker when they report these figures, which I thought was rather revealing), which have plenty of cross-over elements from luxury cars to appeal to the coffee slurping lethargic modern car buyer.

That's depressing!

[RobM77]

stuno1 said:

RobM77 said:

As I think I mentioned earlier, Evo had an editorial piece from Harry last year on the annual sales of RR Evoques being greater than all the European sports car manufacturers put together. I had to look it up to check, but he was right by quite a long way. That's just one particular model of SUV selling more than all the 911s, Caymans, Boxsters, Elises, Exiges, 458s, F12s, Vantages, DB9s etc put together! Even Porsche themselves only have 40% of their sales as sports cars as per the last sales figures (comprising the 911, Cayman and Boxster).

As for Lotus, well they not only just sell sports cars, which already puts them on the edge of viability in today's market, but they also don't appeal to SUV/saloon buyers at all, unlike the luxury cars that Porsche build (some of the press FT actually classify Porsche as a luxury car maker when they report these figures, which I thought was rather revealing), which have plenty of cross-over elements from luxury cars to appeal to the coffee slurping lethargic modern car buyer.

That's depressing!

Very, yes. On a brighter note, perhaps there's hope for Lotus if big manufacturers abandon sports car manufacture altogether though? BMW already killed the Z4 by re-designing it as heavy and as big as a 3 series to suit the coffee slurpers, and it wouldn't surprise me if they stopped making it altogether. Toyota have ceased MR2 production, Honda the S2000 etc. Sports cars of all types could become a very niche product n the future, almost like a Bristol! Sadly that might bring Bristol levels of pricing!!

[Tuna]

The thing to remember though is Lotus is at a scale where sales of just a few thousand translates into profit. For VW, Porsche etc. they have to sell a ten or even a hundred times more to break even. Then of course, they go into mega-profits, but Lotus doesn't *need* to do that, just be turning a profit.

So, yes they could be making more money selling SUV's, but they could also be making more money running a supermarket, or being an online bookstore. Their expertise and chosen market isn't any of those things, so it's pretty irrelevant that SUVs sell more, for the same reason it's irrelevant that the MX-5 has sold many times more than the Elise (despite it being brought up very, very regularly in these discussions).

If Lotus are to continue to produce the sort of cars we're interested, they need to do things to create only a few thousand extra sales, not try to jump into market segments that talk in terms of hundreds of thousands. That means stealing one in 50 Porsche sales, or 1 in 100 MX-5 sales, or 1 in 20 Aston-Martin sales. That doesn't require a radical change in the product, so much as improved confidence and awareness of the brand, stronger dealer network and removal of the 'niggles' that result in people buying something else - concerns about quality, reliability and top trumps comparisons with the competition. None of those things are answered by adding a new SUV to the range, or producing an MX-5 competitor.

[andy_s]

If an SUV translates to profit to prop up/expand their sports cars then good luck to them. I think it's a distant thing though.

I still feel they missed the boat with not tying up closer with Tesla and having a hybrid eliga, but maybe the numbers didn't add up.

I think they are on firmer ground now than before, with an intelligent approach by the boss that'll hopefully keep them afloat long enough to be 'proof of concept' for future investment into carbon fibre for example.

Can't wait to see a trimmed 400 Exige hoofing past most other things costing far more...

[RobM77]

Tuna said:

The thing to remember though is Lotus is at a scale where sales of just a few thousand translates into profit. For VW, Porsche etc. they have to sell a ten or even a hundred times more to break even. Then of course, they go into mega-profits, but Lotus doesn't *need* to do that, just be turning a profit.

So, yes they could be making more money selling SUV's, but they could also be making more money running a supermarket, or being an online bookstore. Their expertise and chosen market isn't any of those things, so it's pretty irrelevant that SUVs sell more, for the same reason it's irrelevant that the MX-5 has sold many times more than the Elise (despite it being brought up very, very regularly in these discussions).

If Lotus are to continue to produce the sort of cars we're interested, they need to do things to create only a few thousand extra sales, not try to jump into market segments that talk in terms of hundreds of thousands. That means stealing one in 50 Porsche sales, or 1 in 100 MX-5 sales, or 1 in 20 Aston-Martin sales. That doesn't require a radical change in the product, so much as improved confidence and awareness of the brand, stronger dealer network and removal of the 'niggles' that result in people buying something else - concerns about quality, reliability and top trumps comparisons with the competition. None of those things are answered by adding a new SUV to the range, or producing an MX-5 competitor.

I competely agree. I'm actually pretty confident that if more people drove Lotuses, profits would soar overnight, which as far as I understand it is Lotus' current marketing push. I think Lotus are doing all the right things, they just need to keep incrementally making their cars more attractive to buyers, as they've done with the Evora 400, and market their cars widely so people get to see and experience them more.

[braddo]

This is the best product line-up Lotus has had for a long time, with a clear hierarchy of models that all have their own distinct appeal. Quality levels are up, as is performance and usability. So, hopefully, with the product now in place, it's case of effective marketing and an improving dealer network to try and get people to actually test the product!

If they can get enough people to try the cars out, and those people can get some comfort that Lotus is sticking around, the sales should take care of themselves.

Good luck, Lotus!

[Kolbenkopp]

NRS said:

MR2 is long gone, so "old" statistics, GT86 is nearer 23k and so on.

This just in. Still think VAG could piece together a BOM for a car as described, with plenty of margin to be profitable at 25k. Selling it under their Porsche label would probably help shift enough.

NRS said:

There's just no market for sports cars these days really.

Things aren't looking very good, agree. Surprised by the Evoque figures, really.

[otolith]

I don't think VAG would want to put a Porsche badge on a 25k car. Their whole product strategy is based on selling fundamentally similar vehicles under different brands at different price points. I think they'd no more do that than sell the 8k city car with an Audi badge rather than a Skoda/VW/Seat badges.

[EK993]

Kolbenkopp said:

Now slot in the hypothetical VAG mid-engined wonder somewhere between the MR2 and the Zenos. Mind you this would be a car with 0 standard equipment. As basic as law allows, no ICE, no xenon lights, switch gear out of a Skoda Citigo, no soft touch plastics, no carpets, simplistic roof (that is even allowed to leak a bit in extreme situations), just the 'good enough' parts bin kit where ever it does not compromise the driving experience.

Another way to look at it: take the current Boxster that starts at 39k. Remove everything not related to driving, including the associated development and testing costs. The option list is now only half a page long. Then replace the expensive flat 6 with a plain 2.0 TSI engine mated to a simple 5 speed gear box.

Nobody would buy it. So few people exist that would want a car like that it would be a complete financial disaster and not "make a tidy profit" as was suggested.

Enthusiasts dream up the perfect car for them which is basically a stripped out road legal race car and assume that is what the general public want as well and it would be an overnight sales sensation.

Selling SUV's and luxury 4 door cars has enabled Porsche to survive and still make the occasional interesting car - GT3's and now 4. Not saying Lotus should get into the SUV business but if they manage to make it a little further down the road without going under they may need to consider a mainstream model to prop up their sports car business.

[Gary C]

Saw an Evora in lancaster on Tuesday and was surprised how 'weak' it looked in traffic.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think it looks good and I would love one, but it did not have the presence of a 911 or an r8. Not sure why, probably because other cars are so big.

And that must make marketing difficult,

Maybe the new 400 will have more presence with the redesign.

[SrMoreno]

Gary C said:

Saw an Evora in lancaster on Tuesday and was surprised how 'weak' it looked in traffic.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think it looks good and I would love one, but it did not have the presence of a 911 or an r8. Not sure why, probably because other cars are so big.

And that must make marketing difficult,

Maybe the new 400 will have more presence with the redesign.

Baffling. The Evora has real presence. I pass a handful of 911s when I'm out walking the dog at night and none of them get a second glance.

Edited by SrMoreno on Friday 27th February 08:22

Edited by SrMoreno on Friday 27th February 08:22

[kambites]

The Evora is one of the more exotic looking cars on the road, IMO; it's in a completely different league to something like a 911. The R8 perhaps has a bit more presence just because it's so wide.

[RobM77]

I have to agree. One passed me on the M3 going the other way in the week and it pulled my attention off my driving just to watch it go past. That doesn't generally happen with 911s.

[leglessAlex]

Yet more agreement here. For me, Porsche 911 < Evora < R8 when it comes to attracting attention.

[British Beef]

RobM77 said:

Tuna said:

The thing to remember though is Lotus is at a scale where sales of just a few thousand translates into profit. For VW, Porsche etc. they have to sell a ten or even a hundred times more to break even. Then of course, they go into mega-profits, but Lotus doesn't *need* to do that, just be turning a profit.

So, yes they could be making more money selling SUV's, but they could also be making more money running a supermarket, or being an online bookstore. Their expertise and chosen market isn't any of those things, so it's pretty irrelevant that SUVs sell more, for the same reason it's irrelevant that the MX-5 has sold many times more than the Elise (despite it being brought up very, very regularly in these discussions).

If Lotus are to continue to produce the sort of cars we're interested, they need to do things to create only a few thousand extra sales, not try to jump into market segments that talk in terms of hundreds of thousands. That means stealing one in 50 Porsche sales, or 1 in 100 MX-5 sales, or 1 in 20 Aston-Martin sales. That doesn't require a radical change in the product, so much as improved confidence and awareness of the brand, stronger dealer network and removal of the 'niggles' that result in people buying something else - concerns about quality, reliability and top trumps comparisons with the competition. None of those things are answered by adding a new SUV to the range, or producing an MX-5 competitor.

I competely agree. I'm actually pretty confident that if more people drove Lotuses, profits would soar overnight, which as far as I understand it is Lotus' current marketing push. I think Lotus are doing all the right things, they just need to keep incrementally making their cars more attractive to buyers, as they've done with the Evora 400, and market their cars widely so people get to see and experience them more.

Yes & yes! People get sidetracked by dillusions of grandure that Porsche has achieved with its broader market appeal of SUVs and Pan-fugly-ameras, all backed by the VW uber machine.

Lotus should stick do doing what they are best at, world domination is not required, but a competitive line up for their market segment is. With their current line up I think they are doing a good job of it!!

[Gary C]

SrMoreno said:

Gary C said:

Saw an Evora in lancaster on Tuesday and was surprised how 'weak' it looked in traffic.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think it looks good and I would love one, but it did not have the presence of a 911 or an r8. Not sure why, probably because other cars are so big.

And that must make marketing difficult,

Maybe the new 400 will have more presence with the redesign.

Baffling. The Evora has real presence. I pass a handful of 911s when I'm out walking the dog at night and none of them get a second glance.

Edited by SrMoreno on Friday 27th February 08:22

Edited by SrMoreno on Friday 27th February 08:22

Weak is the wrong word maybe, not as shouty as others and that matters to quite a few people in this market. As I said, I have seen an Evora on the road previously and I like the looks, but in heavy traffic, it seemed a bit 'lost' (almost, is that a kit car, forgive me, that's a bit over the top but it's in the vein of what I mean) whereas the r8 on the same road, same time, different day looked more 'look at me!'

A 911, while not shouty, look quietly aggresive and somehow get away with it, probably because of the cachet of 50 years.

It's important that the Evora carves it's place.

[XBOW]

Had a lot more attention in my Evora S than my 997 GT3. Unless you're a true petrol head a 911 of any type can easily blend into Cayman, Boxster looks, meaning lots seen on the road. By comparion you rarely see a Lotus of any kind on the road, let alone an Evora .

NB. A vivid colour for the Evora does help of course