RE: Lotus - Evora 400 and beyond
Discussion
straightsixmik said:
My gut tells me someone like VW should buy it - benefit from economies of scale, shed a load of development overhead, and occupy a small but profitable place in the VW empire and build cars true to the niche target they operate within.
The VW empire operates on the economies of scale of platform sharing. What kind of Lotus would you build out of VW's parts bin?straightsixmik said:
My gut tells me someone like VW should buy it - benefit from economies of scale, shed a load of development overhead, and occupy a small but profitable place in the VW empire and build cars true to the niche target they operate within.
I can see it now, the Elise consisting of a range with varying powered 1.9l diesel engines.Jokes aside I hope they can make it on their own, but in the long term you're probably right.
braddo said:
Why are you talking about the Elise? It is the Evora and Exige S that are the models being talked about by Lotus and which look like the core sellers for Lotus in the short term.
The Evora won a bunch of Car of the Year awards when it was launched; it was not off the pace. It had some bad luck though - launched just as a global financial crisis was taking hold, and then sidelined by Bahar when the car was barely a year old.
The market is opening back up for Lotus. Not only are levels of new car buying improving across the globe, but the sort of car Lotus does is becoming more rare and sought after in amongst everything else getting more electonic and remote (and big, and heavy).
Gales reckons sales of 3000 p.a. will make Lotus Cars profitable. We're not talking world domination here, or more than a tiny fraction of Porsche sports car sales.
I'm not being cynical - well I suppose a bit - but as an accountant I would like to know what measure of profitability he is talking about before passing judgement. Does he mean operating profit or profit before or after tax? Also, it is possible that the owner's have written off intangible assets (such as development costs) through the p&l as one-off restructuring costs. That would reduce significantly annual amortisation of those costs (which are generally a big hit for car manufacturers). That is why a manufacturer with an ageing portfolio can look profitable (as development costs have already been absorbed) but it is not a sign of long term health of the business. The Evora won a bunch of Car of the Year awards when it was launched; it was not off the pace. It had some bad luck though - launched just as a global financial crisis was taking hold, and then sidelined by Bahar when the car was barely a year old.
The market is opening back up for Lotus. Not only are levels of new car buying improving across the globe, but the sort of car Lotus does is becoming more rare and sought after in amongst everything else getting more electonic and remote (and big, and heavy).
Gales reckons sales of 3000 p.a. will make Lotus Cars profitable. We're not talking world domination here, or more than a tiny fraction of Porsche sports car sales.
Schnellmann said:
I'm not being cynical - well I suppose a bit - but as an accountant I would like to know what measure of profitability he is talking about before passing judgement. Does he mean operating profit or profit before or after tax? Also, it is possible that the owner's have written off intangible assets (such as development costs) through the p&l as one-off restructuring costs. That would reduce significantly annual amortisation of those costs (which are generally a big hit for car manufacturers). That is why a manufacturer with an ageing portfolio can look profitable (as development costs have already been absorbed) but it is not a sign of long term health of the business.
Indeed. I get the impression from Gales's comments that demonstrating some sustained "profit" between here and 2020 is not necessarily the kind of profit that makes Lotus self sustaining and able to invest in new model development. Rather, it is to demonstrate to the owners that the business is worth investing more in ("Look, Boss, we have the right operating model, now we just need some more cash for new models.").otolith said:
The VW empire operates on the economies of scale of platform sharing. What kind of Lotus would you build out of VW's parts bin?
I'm not suggesting they build an 'Elise' from VW parts bin. They could utlise the development/overhead clout on things that don't add value but are a neccessity that Lotus currently do horrendously - AC units/heater matrices etc etc. Engine out of the Golf R would do a decent job in something lightweight.
Let aspiring technicians/engineers from lambo/porsche loose on a skunkworks type project to rebuild Lotus cars -go after the niche market that Lotus currently appeals and for VW cover almost every segment within the industry. Hell if these mega car companies can spend 100's of millions developing niches' like cross over 2 door large coupes i'm sure there is a business case for a brand like Lotus.
If Alfa can get damn close with something like the 4C I'm sure VW or someone like that could do a great job of a moden day Lotus at a competitive price
Obviously that's all hugely oversimplified!
Claudia Skies said:
straightsixmik said:
VW should buy it........
Don't they already own Porsche? I'm sure the Porsche Macan is based on Audi Q5, Cayenne on the Touareg etc. They need lotus like a hole in the head!straightsixmik said:
otolith said:
The VW empire operates on the economies of scale of platform sharing. What kind of Lotus would you build out of VW's parts bin?
I'm not suggesting they build an 'Elise' from VW parts bin. They could utlise the development/overhead clout on things that don't add value but are a neccessity that Lotus currently do horrendously - AC units/heater matrices etc etc. Engine out of the Golf R would do a decent job in something lightweight.
Let aspiring technicians/engineers from lambo/porsche loose on a skunkworks type project to rebuild Lotus cars -go after the niche market that Lotus currently appeals and for VW cover almost every segment within the industry. Hell if these mega car companies can spend 100's of millions developing niches' like cross over 2 door large coupes i'm sure there is a business case for a brand like Lotus.
If Alfa can get damn close with something like the 4C I'm sure VW or someone like that could do a great job of a moden day Lotus at a competitive price
Obviously that's all hugely oversimplified!
Lotus isn't short on talent, it's short on money. The business case for the 4C - which is effectively a halo car for selling diesel Giuliettas - is not the same as that for selling a core product. I think JLR might be a better fit.
Davey S2 said:
Releasing cars with similar performance at similar price points to Porsche is only ever going to end badly.
So the Jaguar F-Type, Nissan GTR, Maserati GranTurismo etc all have/are going badly? I don't think so. The sports car market is tiny compared to say the SUV market so you won't see many on the roads, and part of buying one is the rarity factor. Porsche, due to its popularity can seem to some a little to common.I do think (and it would seem from what he's said that Gales agrees) that Lotus needs to get to the point where a Lotus is the quickest car of its type for the money. I think that when they come to the Elise they need to get it to the point where the base engine is enough to out-accelerate hot hatches. That's a hard ask, because we are talking about 15k hatchbacks with big engines stuffed in them, so they're always going to offer a lot of bang-per-buck. The current supercharged S model does that, with 0-100 in about 11 seconds which compares favourably to the likes of the Golf R. I hate to say it, because I really don't like turbocharged engines in sports cars, but I think what they really need is a modern 250-300bhp turbocharged two litre engine in the range sitting above the S.
AlexHat said:
Davey S2 said:
Releasing cars with similar performance at similar price points to Porsche is only ever going to end badly.
So the Jaguar F-Type, Nissan GTR, Maserati GranTurismo etc all have/are going badly? I don't think so. The sports car market is tiny compared to say the SUV market so you won't see many on the roads, and part of buying one is the rarity factor. Porsche, due to its popularity can seem to some a little to common.otolith said:
I do think (and it would seem from what he's said that Gales agrees) that Lotus needs to get to the point where a Lotus is the quickest car of its type for the money. I think that when they come to the Elise they need to get it to the point where the base engine is enough to out-accelerate hot hatches. That's a hard ask, because we are talking about 15k hatchbacks with big engines stuffed in them, so they're always going to offer a lot of bang-per-buck. The current supercharged S model does that, with 0-100 in about 11 seconds which compares favourably to the likes of the Golf R. I hate to say it, because I really don't like turbocharged engines in sports cars, but I think what they really need is a modern 250-300bhp turbocharged two litre engine in the range sitting above the S.
I see what you are saying but Lotus are about making fun cars, they are ones that really put a smile on your face. Being the fastest is going to lead to very very competent but ultimately boring cars.I am tempted to suggest some sort of mx5 / gt86 type car, something a bit softer than an elise, £30k-£40k emphasis on being useable, fun... Its always going to be hard to compete with an MX5 but selling 2k cars a year would be a massive success.
Edited by luke g28 on Thursday 19th February 13:52
luke g28 said:
I see what you are saying but Lotus are about making fun cars, they are ones that really put a smile on your face. Being the fastest is going to lead to very very competent but ultimately boring cars.
Depends how it is done. The Exige V6 is not exactly competent but boring. The 911 is, to my tastes at least. Now that Lotus are fitting stability control, I don't think it would be the end of the world if they had enough power to be a bit of a handful with it switched off.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff