RE: Lotus - Evora 400 and beyond
Discussion
kambites said:
Actually, isn't the Evoque transverse engined? Is there a FWD Evoque?
Evoque is transverse, I google imaged it 
, but does the Evoque have any engines that would be worth using in an Elise? I've no idea what options there are to put under the bonnet of an Evoque beyond petrol or diesel. DanielSan said:
kambites said:
Actually, isn't the Evoque transverse engined? Is there a FWD Evoque?
Evoque is transverse, I google imaged it , but does the Evoque have any engines that would be worth using in an Elise? I've no idea what options there are to put under the bonnet of an Evoque beyond petrol or diesel. Richard-G said:
straightsixmik said:
The Cayman is better than the Lotus in every single department - steering feel included.
you being serious? it might do everything else better but not steering feel, NO WAY. Edited by straightsixmik on Thursday 19th February 11:25
I've driven both, a lot.
kambites said:
DanielSan said:
kambites said:
Actually, isn't the Evoque transverse engined? Is there a FWD Evoque?
Evoque is transverse, I google imaged it , but does the Evoque have any engines that would be worth using in an Elise? I've no idea what options there are to put under the bonnet of an Evoque beyond petrol or diesel. kambites said:
It's very hard for European car makers to be competitive on price with American ones in the US, the US industry is just too heavily bank-rolled by the government.
You've got that wrong. In the US market, imported cars outsell domestic cars by a factor of two to one.Furthermore, the domestic sales figure includes US production of non-US brands (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc. manufactured in the US). Consequently, the success of the leading US "Detroit brands" is even weaker.
On your way out, pick up a copy of The Economist. Annual rankings place the US higher than the EU (and higher than Britain, alone) on both competitiveness and innovation. The US market is relatively lacking in subsidy.
One reason that the US market offers punters more value for money is because of tax. As we all know, the EU tends to impose large taxes on sales and on labour.
Add to this the recurring costs of petrol and on-the-road fees (both much higher in the EU), and motoring becomes an expensive proposition with a correspondingly fragile base of consumers.
Is this fragile base going to be the priority market for a manual-transmission M5? Or the newest battery-electric saloon? Or a populist-styled V8 coupe with a horse on the grille?
unsprung said:
You've got that wrong. In the US market, imported cars outsell domestic cars by a factor of two to one.
I didn't say they didn't. The US government loaned GM almost 50 billion dollars and wrote off 10 billion of that when it was clear that GM couldn't pay it off. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I don't know enough about the US economy to know, but it's an enormous amount of money. I don't think it's controversial to say that without that grant, GM wouldn't exist.
Look at the money the US government lent to Tesla (although at least I think Tesla paid it back); The British government simply don't seem to be willing to make that sort of investment in its manufacturing industry.
You are of course right that tax rates and even things like the cost of land penalize the European car industry heavily as well.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 19th February 15:46
kambites said:
The US government loaned GM almost 50 billion dollars and wrote off 10 billion of that when it was clear that GM couldn't pay it off. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I don't know enough about the US economy to know, but it's an enormous amount of money. I don't think it's controversial to say that without that grant, GM wouldn't exist.
Which is a bit of luck for UK since without it Vauxhall would have disappeared just like MG Rover. You may recall that Honda wanted it but, oh no, the UK government had a much better idea....I was out in my 2-Eleven today and I must admit, the idea of a V6 powered one is quite exciting! The 4cyl model's not exactly lacking in straight line performance though, I must confess if I was tasked with improving the 2-Eleven I'd want a better gearchange and better weight distribution, rather than more power. It'll be a fantastic car though, I'm sure, as would a 400bhp Exige! 
kambites said:
unsprung said:
You've got that wrong. In the US market, imported cars outsell domestic cars by a factor of two to one.
I didn't say they didn't. The US government loaned GM almost 50 billion dollars and wrote off 10 billion of that when it was clear that GM couldn't pay it off. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do, I don't know enough about the US economy to know, but it's an enormous amount of money. I don't think it's controversial to say that without that grant, GM wouldn't exist.
Look at the money the US government lent to Tesla (although at least I think Tesla paid it back); The British government simply don't seem to be willing to make that sort of investment in its manufacturing industry.
You are of course right that tax rates and even things like the cost of land penalize the European car industry heavily as well.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 19th February 15:46
But GM is an exception to my argument which is that the relative competitiveness of cars for sale in the US is determined primarily by cost of ownership and market scale -- and not by a protectionist programme whereby government subsidies favour one group of manufacturers over another.
Look again at my three examples -- none of which is General Motors and one of which is a European import. My argument applies equally to EU brands and US brands.
In countries where cost of ownership and scale are less restrictive, manufacturers can afford to offer X-Drive across the range. Or put a “stick” in their sports saloon. Indeed, manufacturers will be penalised if they don’t offer more choice and more customisation.
Ironically, we might say that, in many cases, EU cars in the US are more competitive there than they are at home.
Vee12V said:
Steering feel? Wow, you clearly don't now what you're talking about..
Wow ! Never realised there was a distinct definition of what constitutes steering feel, and it wasn't at all subjective. I gave my opinion on steering feel. I stand by it that as a balance the cayman GTS has better steering feel than any lotus. What do I mean by that ? The lotus rack no doubt gives more information. Personally I think it's slightly overwhelming. The cayman rack filters out irrelevant info and just leaves you with more than enough feel to disseminate understeering and oversteer without the constant tramlining and irrelevances for the road. The dead ahead feel on loti is great I'll give you that. Surely steering feel is fairly well defined? It's the information about the interface between the front wheels and the road transmitted to the driver through the steering wheel. The more detailed the information, the more feel the steering has. I'm sure you could devise a machine to objectively measure it if you wanted to.
Whether you like a lot of steering feel is a different matter, though. More information through the steering isn't necessarily better - the Elise's can certainly get annoying on the motorway because it leads you into making constant tiny course corrections which aren't necessary.
I absolutely hated the 987's (and indeed the 997's) steering so there obviously is a subjective element to what's "nice" and what isn't.
Whether you like a lot of steering feel is a different matter, though. More information through the steering isn't necessarily better - the Elise's can certainly get annoying on the motorway because it leads you into making constant tiny course corrections which aren't necessary.
I absolutely hated the 987's (and indeed the 997's) steering so there obviously is a subjective element to what's "nice" and what isn't.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 19th February 19:40
objectively it would simply be the ratio of forces input left and right at the front wheels to the forces at the steering wheel clockwise and anti-clockwise.Subjectivity is another matter though. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Personally, I found the two Cayman Ss that I drove a few years ago almost Audi like (which isn't a compliment!!), with the added annoyance of that infamous non-linear steering rack - yuk. I suspect i'd get used to the steering feel if I drove one for a while though, as I did with the MINI I've been driving this week or the Z4C I owned for a year in 2009, both of which felt awful at first but I got used to them after a few hundred miles. I doubt I'd ever adjust to a rack deliberately cut with varying ratio across it's length though, nil points Porsche, sorry. In contrast, I loved the Elise's steering when I first drove one and still did 8 years later, as I love my 2-11's steering now and that of the latest Exige and Evora. Personally I think Porsche have got a long way to go in terms of feedback, both from the steering and seat of the pants, but that is just my subjective opinion of course.
Rob, I agree entirely. I love the steering in my Elise S1. I have driven hundreds of cars but nothing comes close IMO. Modern Porsches definitely don't and are nowhere in comparison to a new Exige for instance. I don't understand how someone could honestly think a Cayman steers better than any Lotus. Saying that I quite liked the steering in an SC but arguably it was too heavy and lacked the delicacy and precision of the Elise.
The famed Lotus damping and steering is always wonderful to experience - I thought he Exige v6 was a stunning road car for that very reason.
The famed Lotus damping and steering is always wonderful to experience - I thought he Exige v6 was a stunning road car for that very reason.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 19th February 22:39
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