RE: Honda Civic Type R (EP3): PH Buying Guide

[pigeonskirt]

JMF894 said:

Bought a brand new Premier edition back in 2005. I traded in a Leon Cupra 150 tdi with revo remap that was 14 months old

1) Leon was quicker
2) Leon had better grip/traction
3) Leon had better steering
4) Leon had better chassis than you might imagine given it's MK4 Golf roots

Sold the EP3 after 8 months
Tiresome, noisy and not as quick as you would believe, and yes, I do know how to rev a vtec.

Fabulous engine and gearbox in the wrong type of car IMHO

Shame

Jimbo

An acquaintance of mine had a Fabia VRS which was remapped + a few other mods. It was as quick as my CTR up to about 80, then mine started to pull away. His still sounded like a rattly old tractor though! That said, comparing modified to standard is a little unfair.

It's true the CTR isn't for everyone. I wouldn't want one if I was up and down the M6 all day. Fun for B road driving though :-)

[Guvernator]

A friend bought a Cat D one as a runaround\track slag and we caned the absolute nuts of it at trackdays, Santa Pod and anywhere else you'd care to mention and it took all the abuse and more. They are surprisingly quick, sound great and are a great antidote to all the too easy to drive diesel-esque turbo cars that seem to be all you can buy these days. I really hope they manage to retain some of that manic nature in the new one.

However the one thing I didn't like was the styling, really what were they thinking with that shape? It looks like you should be delivering pizzas in it. In fact this might offend a few but I don't think ANY Honda that has carried the Type R badge is good looking with the exception of the NSX of course. Shame really as I think that engine and gearbox combo is epic and I'd have one in a heartbeat if I could live with the looks, if only they'd make a sexy looking car to go with it. In fact the best looking car I've seen that powertrain in is a Lotus Exige.

[Emeye]

I guess there are a st load CatDs of these around?

When they were new they were the joy rider/bank robber escape vehicle of choice, especially up here in the North West.

As you can imagine, these scrotes didn't walk into a Honda Dealership and buy one.

[jontbone]

Nice write up Alisdair. 10 years has passed since selling my EP3 Type R during which time I've sampled so called better and faster machinery and yet here I am realising that the best car I've owned pound for pound was my "breadvan" civic. At £2000 it's hard to beat the bang for the buck and am seriously tempted to go back in for one.

[egor110]

ModernAndy said:

dme123 said:

I've always been keen to drive one of these. I don't know if all the barry boy knobbers I see on the roads really don't know how to drive them properly or if they're just not that fast, but I never have any trouble leaving them behind in my lardy automatic V70 T5. Also before anyone says yes I do know they are trying hard because I can hear the engine farting it's guts out through the stty exhaust they've fitted.

I had a similar experience; seriously embarassed some wee lad in an EP3 on the motorway when he thought it would be clever to tailgate when I was already making decent but relaxed progress in my totally unmodified S60 T5.

Surely a hot hatch is made for b roads not motorway drag races with no corners?

[jontbone]

egor110 said:

Surely a hot hatch is made for b roads not motorway drag races with no corners?

I'd be inclined to agree, my EP3 was just so so on the motorway, it was the B roads where it came alive and was fun keeping it on the boil. This revved to highly to be a motorway cruiser

[billy939]

I've had two and they are great.

Utterly reliable, great fun and far quicker than a lot of people expect.

My 2nd one was still on the original clutch and timing chain when I sold it on 130k. The chain is actually a lifetime item if the car is serviced and maintained correctly.
Servicing is cheap too and fuel economy is also very good for a 2ltr hatch, averaging 32-35mpg is regularly achieved with up to 40mpg possible on the motorway.

Out of all the hot hatches I have owned and driven it is the most fun down a windy back road. The engine, gearbox and handling all make it superb fun. They also look pretty good on the inside and outside too!

In terms of outright performance, catch one out of Vtec or in the wrong gear and a 150bhp diesel will embarrass it, dropping several gears to overtake becomes second nature in a Type R.

However off of a roundabout, a tight bend or from standing the Ep3 is very underestimated.
In the time I owned 2 standard EP3s I had runs alongside a; Golf R32(Mk4), Leon Cupra R(210bhp), Audi TT Quattro Sport (240bhp), RX8(231), Clio 182 and plenty more and the Ep3 was as quick or slightly quicker than all of them. The majority were friends cars and were all pretty surprised at how close it came to more powerful cars when it was really being tested. (To clarify I live in Lincolnshire, so when I say this was on an old airfield, I'm being deadly serious! )

As far as Hot Hatches go there isn't many from this era that can get close to the Ep3 in my opinion, the Clio 182 being especially overrated in comparison.
I loved them so much that the only thing that was a suitable upgrade for me was an FN2, which is everything the older car was and so much more besides, but that is a different debate altogether!

[TobyLaRohne]

These little beasties do great on track, I love my EP3 for chasing big power cars, ok mine isn't exactly stock any more, but its still got the stock engine!
It'll keep up with M5's and 911's on track if you hustle it!

[Chuck328]

TobyLaRohne said:

These little beasties do great on track, I love my EP3 for chasing big power cars, ok mine isn't exactly stock any more, but its still got the stock engine!
It'll keep up with M5's and 911's on track if you hustle it!

Must be a heck of a tight track to put the power down if you can do that!

[TobyLaRohne]

Chuck328 said:

TobyLaRohne said:

These little beasties do great on track, I love my EP3 for chasing big power cars, ok mine isn't exactly stock any more, but its still got the stock engine!
It'll keep up with M5's and 911's on track if you hustle it!

Must be a heck of a tight track to put the power down if you can do that!

Wanna see the videos? Actually its a motogp track and heavy on the speed, as you can see from the vids they're on the limit of traction quite alot...I was hanging back because it was a trackday and I didn't want to start pressuring someone I didn't know in the corners.

EP3 vs M5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcmCtmflxc
EP3 vs Porsche 911s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssaL1Kb7R9M

[TerryCTR]

"Normally aspirated"

Thought it was naturally myself

[dukebox9reg]

pigeonskirt said:

JMF894 said:

Bought a brand new Premier edition back in 2005. I traded in a Leon Cupra 150 tdi with revo remap that was 14 months old

1) Leon was quicker
2) Leon had better grip/traction
3) Leon had better steering
4) Leon had better chassis than you might imagine given it's MK4 Golf roots

Sold the EP3 after 8 months
Tiresome, noisy and not as quick as you would believe, and yes, I do know how to rev a vtec.

Fabulous engine and gearbox in the wrong type of car IMHO

Shame

Jimbo

An acquaintance of mine had a Fabia VRS which was remapped + a few other mods. It was as quick as my CTR up to about 80, then mine started to pull away. His still sounded like a rattly old tractor though! That said, comparing modified to standard is a little unfair.

It's true the CTR isn't for everyone. I wouldn't want one if I was up and down the M6 all day. Fun for B road driving though :-)

I had a mapped Mk2 Leon 140 PD DSG. Ignoring 0-60 (was around 7.2-3 for the Leon) from rolling starts and generally booting about my Leon was quicker to around 90ish when the advantage of the tq and DSG shifts ran out and he would start going past.

Not saying the Leon Diesel is the better car (that would be silly) just saying.

And for a 3 MPS being surprised in a previous post. Another close mate had a 6 MPS at the same time with the same engine in an obviously heavier car. I didnt see which way he went in the same situation.

[JMF894]

dukebox9reg said:

I had a mapped Mk2 Leon 140 PD DSG. Ignoring 0-60 (was around 7.2-3 for the Leon) from rolling starts and generally booting about my Leon was quicker to around 90ish when the advantage of the tq and DSG shifts ran out and he would start going past.

Not saying the Leon Diesel is the better car (that would be silly) just saying.

And for a 3 MPS being surprised in a previous post. Another close mate had a 6 MPS at the same time with the same engine in an obviously heavier car. I didnt see which way he went in the same situation.

Indeed, The engineering of the EP3 type r puts the VW parts bin Leon to shame but at the time I had a wife and two kids and was travelling quite a lot. As a weekend toy the civic has an entirely different appeal, something that does actually appeal to me still.

Jimbo

[Oz83]

TobyLaRohne said:

Wanna see the videos? Actually its a motogp track and heavy on the speed, as you can see from the vids they're on the limit of traction quite alot...I was hanging back because it was a trackday and I didn't want to start pressuring someone I didn't know in the corners.

EP3 vs M5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcmCtmflxc
EP3 vs Porsche 911s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssaL1Kb7R9M

The M5 driver doesn't have a clue so I think we can ignore that one :-)

I think the Porsche did well for a full fat road going sports car. Bit unfair against a fully stripped, track prepared car, even if it is is a Civic. Obviously a properly set up car on semi slicks will out corner a standard car. The Porsche still rinses the Civic down the straights, and I bet with a set of comparable tyres it would match the Civic in the corners too.

[knebworth01]

JMF894 said:

dukebox9reg said:

I had a mapped Mk2 Leon 140 PD DSG. Ignoring 0-60 (was around 7.2-3 for the Leon) from rolling starts and generally booting about my Leon was quicker to around 90ish when the advantage of the tq and DSG shifts ran out and he would start going past.

Not saying the Leon Diesel is the better car (that would be silly) just saying.

And for a 3 MPS being surprised in a previous post. Another close mate had a 6 MPS at the same time with the same engine in an obviously heavier car. I didnt see which way he went in the same situation.

Indeed, The engineering of the EP3 type r puts the VW parts bin Leon to shame but at the time I had a wife and two kids and was travelling quite a lot. As a weekend toy the civic has an entirely different appeal, something that does actually appeal to me still.

Jimbo

I just dont get these comments from Diesel VAG and Volvo men, you're comparing apples with pears. Used to have an EP3 as a company motor back in 2003 and loved it. Would wipe the floor with any TDI you care to mention, they'd be changing gear at 4k just as the Civic was getting into its stride for the next 4k RPM. You can overtake on their timewasting, turbo lagged gear changes alone!
Unless you're committed you'd never get the best out of the Type R, but that was always the fun!

[DMN]

I bought a fairly tired one about 18 months ago, it was one of the cheapest on the market then.

Even though it was a bit of a dog when I bought it, its not missed a beat. I've done a couple of pre-Malton Big Breakfast Hoons, down to Le Mans and back and a track day at Cadwell. Its been faultless. Its even averaged 38mpg on the way to and from work. Yes I have had to do some work on it, but doing 95% of it DIY has kept the cost down and its quite an easy car to work on.

The main issue mine had it rattles. They rattle a lot, more so at the age they are getting too. In short mines had the following rattles/knocks:

Exhaust Manifold Cover.
iVTEC plastic Engine Cover.
Drive shaft heat guard.
Worn ball joint knocking
worn drop-links front and back knocking
Top monts knocking

Took a bit of working through, but only the ball joint proved mildly expensive, and thats because I let my local garage tackle it. Even then it was less than £100. One good thing about the age, is that most problems have been seen before, and there is normally a diy guide to put them right.

These cars do respond to the right rubber on the wheels. When purchased mine had generic ditch finders front and back. When pulling out of a junction when the road was wet, I often found the fronts would spin up in 3rd. Far from ideal. I've now put Avon ZZ3's on the front, which have a high wet grip rating and they've changed the way it behaves in all weather conditions.


I'm now thinking of chopping it and my other daily car in for one single car, but I know I'll miss that engine when its on song.

[Mr. Potato Head]

knebworth01 said:

I just dont get these comments from Diesel VAG and Volvo men

Personally I can't wait to own a diesel Volvo. I'm then going to go in the Elise forum and say that my car is faster on a motorway and therefore better.
That'll show 'em.

[dukebox9reg]

knebworth01 said:

JMF894 said:

dukebox9reg said:

I had a mapped Mk2 Leon 140 PD DSG. Ignoring 0-60 (was around 7.2-3 for the Leon) from rolling starts and generally booting about my Leon was quicker to around 90ish when the advantage of the tq and DSG shifts ran out and he would start going past.

Not saying the Leon Diesel is the better car (that would be silly) just saying.

And for a 3 MPS being surprised in a previous post. Another close mate had a 6 MPS at the same time with the same engine in an obviously heavier car. I didnt see which way he went in the same situation.

Indeed, The engineering of the EP3 type r puts the VW parts bin Leon to shame but at the time I had a wife and two kids and was travelling quite a lot. As a weekend toy the civic has an entirely different appeal, something that does actually appeal to me still.

Jimbo

I just dont get these comments from Diesel VAG and Volvo men, you're comparing apples with pears. Used to have an EP3 as a company motor back in 2003 and loved it. Would wipe the floor with any TDI you care to mention, they'd be changing gear at 4k just as the Civic was getting into its stride for the next 4k RPM. You can overtake on their timewasting, turbo lagged gear changes alone!
Unless you're committed you'd never get the best out of the Type R, but that was always the fun!

My point is even when flooring it etc when you are fully committed the type r isnt as quick in a straight line as some would believe and as I pointed out the DSG box in my car made up a lot of the difference in respects to 'turbo lagged gear changes'.

So when fully 'on it' its only as quick as a modern diesel and you can't have moderate progress with this engine, it's all or nothing.

So even as some owners have alluded to, its not a commuter car and its only as fast in a straight line as a moderately powered diesel hatch. Question: Why are there so many that stick forced induction on these? Yes it handles okay but the fact that it only really party piece is being able to headbutt the limiter higher than most engines it just doesn't do it for me (for the road in standard trim I should add, striped out track toy is different). I would have a FN though.

I also pointed out the Leon wasn't the better car.

Edited by dukebox9reg on Wednesday 25th February 11:17

[knebworth01]

You don't get it and clearly have never driven one.
People have got lazy with turbos relying on torque, keep a Type R singing to get the best out of it.
Superchargers? People always want more power, why does anyone tune ANY car?
Doesn't mean they think the original car is no good?

[Guvernator]

I've driven turbo cars and highly strung NA's and there are good and bad points to both. The problem these days is that we are rapidly loosing any choice in the matter. I can't think of one single hot hatch that is available to buy today that isn't turbocharged. Now I am not one of these people that think turbochargers are the devils work, however I do object to the fact that they are all tuned in the same way, slugs of low down torque with minimum fuss or drama.

I can pretty much tell how most modern hatches will drive without even turning a wheel. This is fine if all you want to do is bumble up and down the motorway all day but surely the remit of a "hot" hatch is that it should be a bit more exciting to drive then a DSG'd tdi, the clue is in the name, hot.

That's why the fact that you have to work a Type R is a breath of fresh air. Sure they aren't much faster than modern tdi's but they aren't exactly a slouch either, (how fast do you really need to go anyway). What they are though is infinitely more exciting when you want to have fun. I'm fed up with manufacturers chasing absurd power figures when the underlying product is so dull. You can now buy a Golf with 300 bhp with 4wd and a automatic gearbox. Yes it's stupendously fast but sleep inducing at the same time, 100mph easily achievable on nearly any road with minimum fuss or drama.

Unfortunately it looks like those who want a hot hatch for actual driving kicks are now in the minority and the Type R is a car from a bygone era. Like everything else, the hot hatch has been forced "upmarket" with the horsepower willy-waving, badge on the front and amount of toys inside more important than how it drives.