RE: Honda Civic Type R (EP3): PH Buying Guide
Discussion
Guvernator said:
I've driven turbo cars and highly strung NA's and there are good and bad points to both. The problem these days is that we are rapidly loosing any choice in the matter. I can't think of one single hot hatch that is available to buy today that isn't turbocharged. Now I am not one of these people that think turbochargers are the devils work, however I do object to the fact that they are all tuned in the same way, slugs of low down torque with minimum fuss or drama.
I can pretty much tell how most modern hatches will drive without even turning a wheel. This is fine if all you want to do is bumble up and down the motorway all day but surely the remit of a "hot" hatch is that it should be a bit more exciting to drive then a DSG'd tdi, the clue is in the name, hot.
That's why the fact that you have to work a Type R is a breath of fresh air. Sure they aren't much faster than modern tdi's but they aren't exactly a slouch either, (how fast do you really need to go anyway). What they are though is infinitely more exciting when you want to have fun. I'm fed up with manufacturers chasing absurd power figures when the underlying product is so dull. You can now buy a Golf with 300 bhp with 4wd and a automatic gearbox. Yes it's stupendously fast but sleep inducing at the same time, 100mph easily achievable on nearly any road with minimum fuss or drama.
Unfortunately it looks like those who want a hot hatch for actual driving kicks are now in the minority and the Type R is a car from a bygone era. Like everything else, the hot hatch has been forced "upmarket" with the horsepower willy-waving, badge on the front and amount of toys inside more important than how it drives.
Agree 100%I can pretty much tell how most modern hatches will drive without even turning a wheel. This is fine if all you want to do is bumble up and down the motorway all day but surely the remit of a "hot" hatch is that it should be a bit more exciting to drive then a DSG'd tdi, the clue is in the name, hot.
That's why the fact that you have to work a Type R is a breath of fresh air. Sure they aren't much faster than modern tdi's but they aren't exactly a slouch either, (how fast do you really need to go anyway). What they are though is infinitely more exciting when you want to have fun. I'm fed up with manufacturers chasing absurd power figures when the underlying product is so dull. You can now buy a Golf with 300 bhp with 4wd and a automatic gearbox. Yes it's stupendously fast but sleep inducing at the same time, 100mph easily achievable on nearly any road with minimum fuss or drama.
Unfortunately it looks like those who want a hot hatch for actual driving kicks are now in the minority and the Type R is a car from a bygone era. Like everything else, the hot hatch has been forced "upmarket" with the horsepower willy-waving, badge on the front and amount of toys inside more important than how it drives.
This article has got me thinking about getting back in a type-r again as a weekend runaround. I just want something fun to drive.
And I don't get why we always get back to how fast something is as a means to judging its merit. I don't care if a VAG diesel is quicker than a Type-R as I can guarantee the Honda driver is having an awful lot more fun and doing an awful lot more driving (and I've owned examples of both).
One of the most fun cars I've ever owned was an 8v mk2 Golf Gti with 110 hp. I would get burned by modern 1.6 petrol Astras. Who cares? You get more time to enjoy the steering, chassis, throttle response, etc. etc. CTR is tremendous.
One of the most fun cars I've ever owned was an 8v mk2 Golf Gti with 110 hp. I would get burned by modern 1.6 petrol Astras. Who cares? You get more time to enjoy the steering, chassis, throttle response, etc. etc. CTR is tremendous.
macky17 said:
And I don't get why we always get back to how fast something is as a means to judging its merit. I don't care if a VAG diesel is quicker than a Type-R as I can guarantee the Honda driver is having an awful lot more fun and doing an awful lot more driving (and I've owned examples of both).
One of the most fun cars I've ever owned was an 8v mk2 Golf Gti with 110 hp. I would get burned by modern 1.6 petrol Astras. Who cares? You get more time to enjoy the steering, chassis, throttle response, etc. etc. CTR is tremendous.
This!!!One of the most fun cars I've ever owned was an 8v mk2 Golf Gti with 110 hp. I would get burned by modern 1.6 petrol Astras. Who cares? You get more time to enjoy the steering, chassis, throttle response, etc. etc. CTR is tremendous.
I got hold of a ep3 type R last year. I wasn't really looking for one, but the wife's best friend was getting shot and getting a brand new mini and this was going into be sold on into the trade.
It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
Oz83 said:
TobyLaRohne said:
Wanna see the videos? Actually its a motogp track and heavy on the speed, as you can see from the vids they're on the limit of traction quite alot...I was hanging back because it was a trackday and I didn't want to start pressuring someone I didn't know in the corners.
EP3 vs M5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcmCtmflxc
EP3 vs Porsche 911s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssaL1Kb7R9M
The M5 driver doesn't have a clue so I think we can ignore that one :-) EP3 vs M5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQcmCtmflxc
EP3 vs Porsche 911s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssaL1Kb7R9M
I think the Porsche did well for a full fat road going sports car. Bit unfair against a fully stripped, track prepared car, even if it is is a Civic. Obviously a properly set up car on semi slicks will out corner a standard car. The Porsche still rinses the Civic down the straights, and I bet with a set of comparable tyres it would match the Civic in the corners too.
his lap times were 2.40 and my race pace laps are 2.28-2.27 Like I say, it was only a bit of fun. The new 991 GT3 laps the same track in 2.19 with a race driver behind the wheel.
dme123 said:
RobertDawson said:
PistonBroker said:
SWMBO
This isn't cute, it's embarrassing. Women want a man to be a man, they don't want a man to "obey" them.Shorter and quicker than typing 'my wife' as I've discovered twice now in this post.
Thanks especially to Robert for the mildly concerning relationship advice there!
I got hold of a ep3 type R last year. I wasn't really looking for one, but the wife's best friend was getting shot and getting a brand new mini and this was going into be sold on into the trade.
It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
I had one of the premier (run out) editions of the EP3, absolutely cracking car. With regards to the gearbox being notchy, from cold I found mine was ALWAYS a pain going from first to second, once warmed up it was a little more sociable, the box was opened up twice by the dealership under warranty with nothing found wrong. They advised they were all the same to some degree.
spudgun GB said:
I got hold of a ep3 type R last year. I wasn't really looking for one, but the wife's best friend was getting shot and getting a brand new mini and this was going into be sold on into the trade.
It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
Nice buy. Not sure if it will ever become a classic in the true sense of the word, i.e. commanding silly money as they made far too many but I suspect you certainly won't loose any money and who knows, in 20 years time when most have been chav'd up or destroyed...It's a weekend car that I'm taking a bit of a punt on might become a classic in years to come.
I think I have bought right, under 40,000 miles, FHSH and totally unmodified in any way. It's also a cosmic grey premier edition, which is a bonus.
I don't drive it much this time of the year but we did have one trip up to Avebury from South Somerset and on the twisty A and B roads it was epic fun. As previously mentioned, the high performance NA is a thing of the past and I think/hope that down the line, cars like this are going to be sorely missed.
What I am quite shocked about is the price of DC2 Integra Type R's and how low they are. Considering there aren't that many left, they are often spoken of reverentially as one of the best FWD cars of all time and with the recent surge of well pretty much anything decent from that era, I'm really surprised that they seem to be stuck in bargain basement land, surely that has to change at some point?
Oz83 said:
Agree 100%
This article has got me thinking about getting back in a type-r again as a weekend runaround. I just want something fun to drive.
I just got back into a Type-R myself, unintentionally really as my other car was basically knackered and I was offered this (albeit an fn2) for a price I couldn't really turn down.This article has got me thinking about getting back in a type-r again as a weekend runaround. I just want something fun to drive.
What an absolute blast it is. I was laughing out loud just at the noise of the thing and it's been a long time since I've done that.
Makes me laugh people comparing a dull remapped diesel to one. Try again against a Flashpro'd CTR and I suspect the smile would be wiped well and truly off their face.
The whole car just feels alive and exciting. I agree with the poster after who said these might end up being classics when all we're left with is dull turbo charged bland wagons.
Think I'm going to keep mine for a good while, can't imagine finding anything else as fun for the price paid while still being a usable and practical daily driver.
Mike22233 said:
I have one but I feel sorry for you guys who think these are "seriously quick" clearly your perception of quick is quite low.
Never thought it was "seriously quick", I've owned or driven some VERY quick cars so in the grand scheme of things you are right. However a 0-60 of 6.4 is pretty respectable for a 2 litre FWD hot hatch but the more important thing, especially in this day of speed bumps, scamera's etc is that it still "feels" quick even if you are only doing 40mph, something that is missing on all the 300bhp+ uber hatches which seem to be trying their hardest to cosset you from any impression of speed\fun.Edited by Mike22233 on Wednesday 25th February 16:35
macky17 said:
Great little cars. More torque below Vtec than haters would have you believe and flies once above 6k rpm (and I'm not easily impressed - look at my garage). Steering could be better but otherwise it's a tremendous little thing. I'm even tempted to ditch my Mk5 GTi in favour of a super low mileage final edition just down the road...
Yeah I was surprised how nippy the EP3 I drove was, out of the VTEC zone. In the VTEC zone however, a different matter. Due to the hype I was expecting to be pinned to my seat, but all I detected was a change in engine note.Good handling, a very rigid body shell and probably the best gearshift of any hatchback (at the time). But I just didn't bond with it. It felt like a van inside, too much exhaust drone and felt a bit tinny / fragile.
I know where Mike is coming from.
My perception of "quick" was instantly redefined the moment I experienced over 400hp / tonne.
Type R's are about the experience, in my opinion. They're not fast cars unless they've been tweaked with quite a bit.
....and I say that as someone who is a big Type R fan.
My perception of "quick" was instantly redefined the moment I experienced over 400hp / tonne.
Type R's are about the experience, in my opinion. They're not fast cars unless they've been tweaked with quite a bit.
....and I say that as someone who is a big Type R fan.
Guvernator said:
Never thought it was "seriously quick", I've owned or driven some VERY quick cars so in the grand scheme of things you are right. However a 0-60 of 6.4 is pretty respectable for a 2 litre FWD hot hatch but the more important thing, especially in this day of speed bumps, scamera's etc is that it still "feels" quick even if you are only doing 40mph, something that is missing on all the 300bhp+ uber hatches which seem to be trying their hardest to cosset you from any impression of speed\fun.
I wasn't quoting you but someone said it was seriously quick earlier.I love my ep3 premier but I am very lucky to have something more comfortable (and something less comfortable)
DMN said:
I bought a fairly tired one about 18 months ago, it was one of the cheapest on the market then.
Even though it was a bit of a dog when I bought it, its not missed a beat. I've done a couple of pre-Malton Big Breakfast Hoons, down to Le Mans and back and a track day at Cadwell. Its been faultless. Its even averaged 38mpg on the way to and from work. Yes I have had to do some work on it, but doing 95% of it DIY has kept the cost down and its quite an easy car to work on.
The main issue mine had it rattles. They rattle a lot, more so at the age they are getting too. In short mines had the following rattles/knocks:
Exhaust Manifold Cover.
iVTEC plastic Engine Cover.
Drive shaft heat guard.
Worn ball joint knocking
worn drop-links front and back knocking
Top monts knocking
Took a bit of working through, but only the ball joint proved mildly expensive, and thats because I let my local garage tackle it. Even then it was less than £100. One good thing about the age, is that most problems have been seen before, and there is normally a diy guide to put them right.
These cars do respond to the right rubber on the wheels. When purchased mine had generic ditch finders front and back. When pulling out of a junction when the road was wet, I often found the fronts would spin up in 3rd. Far from ideal. I've now put Avon ZZ3's on the front, which have a high wet grip rating and they've changed the way it behaves in all weather conditions.
I'm now thinking of chopping it and my other daily car in for one single car, but I know I'll miss that engine when its on song.
I too bought a near bottom of the market car over a year ago now - see my readers car thread. I could tell just driving it that the engine and box were strong, so ignored other minor 'issues' like the 100k milage and that a bush needed doing. I have recently developed a vibration and knock from the front o/s suspension that I am currently looking into but show me a low car with 116k miles on, in an area with terrible roads that won't have developed this. I can't say I have suffered any other rattles or knocks though, some people seem to complain about interior rattles but mine's been solid.Even though it was a bit of a dog when I bought it, its not missed a beat. I've done a couple of pre-Malton Big Breakfast Hoons, down to Le Mans and back and a track day at Cadwell. Its been faultless. Its even averaged 38mpg on the way to and from work. Yes I have had to do some work on it, but doing 95% of it DIY has kept the cost down and its quite an easy car to work on.
The main issue mine had it rattles. They rattle a lot, more so at the age they are getting too. In short mines had the following rattles/knocks:
Exhaust Manifold Cover.
iVTEC plastic Engine Cover.
Drive shaft heat guard.
Worn ball joint knocking
worn drop-links front and back knocking
Top monts knocking
Took a bit of working through, but only the ball joint proved mildly expensive, and thats because I let my local garage tackle it. Even then it was less than £100. One good thing about the age, is that most problems have been seen before, and there is normally a diy guide to put them right.
These cars do respond to the right rubber on the wheels. When purchased mine had generic ditch finders front and back. When pulling out of a junction when the road was wet, I often found the fronts would spin up in 3rd. Far from ideal. I've now put Avon ZZ3's on the front, which have a high wet grip rating and they've changed the way it behaves in all weather conditions.
I'm now thinking of chopping it and my other daily car in for one single car, but I know I'll miss that engine when its on song.
I bloody love it even if mine is a bit rough around the edges cosmetically. I drive Land Rovers (all models) all day and when I jump back in the Civic, yeah it feels tinny, but that makes it feel lighter and instantly responsive. I did a 1200 mile jaunt in a Disco 4 before Christmas and the throttle response of the Civic after jumping back into it was insane in comparison. They don't have to be driven at 8k rpm everywhere to get them to move either, unless you can't drive. But if you keep your foot in all the way they are surprisingly nippy, I do think they really punch above their weight provided the road is right. I have Uniroyal rainsports all round now, had the car aligned, it handles good enough for me!
I'm lucky enough to have an ep3 as a second car and although I've been saving and thinking about selling it I'm struggling to find something to replace it with. There's not a lot out there for the price that offers the performance, practicality, low running costs and reliability for the money.
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