Do you 'engage' with cyclists?

[Johnnytheboy]

Liquid Knight said:

Johnnytheboy said:

Liquid Knight said:

Just a little off topic.

Yes I do, on the way into work last night I caught up with a PoB (Pedestrian on Bike) with a hoody and flat batteries in his front light. My front light was working so I marked time until he was home safe.

Can you define a PoB more precisely please?

Pedestrian on Bike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL0oMqAen5s

http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/cyclis...

So sort of someone just using it merely as transport rather than cycling as a pastime?

I think I'm one of them!

[walm]

JagXJR said:

Even when you can show you did everything right and the cyclist did not they will not admit it. As shown on this thread.

Cyclists on this thread (including me) happily admit that shoulder checks should be done and that swearing with coffee-beans are unnecessary.

I think everyone is well aware of who it is that won't entertain the possibility they did anything wrong.

However, at least that individual sticks to his guns when he decides to drop the subject and not make himself look any more of a douche... oh wait...

[Mr Will]

JagXJR said:

People can change, we just need something to happen to effect it.

Look at smoking, it was very fashionable once but attitudes have changed.

Engaging with cyclists will not change their attitudes, and will lead to conflict, as shown by the many posts directed to me including the one above.

Even when you can show you did everything right and the cyclist did not they will not admit it. As shown on this thread.

People will just make things up or become abusive and violent rather than admit they were wrong. Sad really but perhaps it is human nature.

You are right, people do not seem to care anymore, there is not the respect there once was in this county.

The first step in making any change is admitting your own mistakes.

[JagXJR]

walm said:

Cyclists on this thread (including me) happily admit that shoulder checks should be done and that swearing with coffee-beans are unnecessary.

Thank you. About time someone saw sense.

Hey, perhaps attitudes can change with engaging after all!

Please ride safely, and respectfully. That's all I ask.

Thank you.

[heebeegeetee]

Finlandia said:

Single bicycle accidents. Analysis of hospital injury data and interviews

Abstract The objective of this project was to study single bicycle accidents, to see how these can be avoided and how the injuries due to these can be alleviated. The in-depth studies of fatal accidents by the Swedish Traffic Administration, and hospital reported accidents in the database Strada have been analysed. The focus was on the single bicycle accidents resulting in death or serious injury, and the data for 2007–2011 were included. In addition, 32 seriously injured cyclists were interviewed about the accident in which they had been involved. Of all the cyclists who need emergency treatment, eight out of ten had been injured in a single accident. In addition, on average five cyclists were killed every year in a single bicycle accident. In all, during the five-year period studied, 125 cyclists were killed. Of the 1,274 seriously injured in single bicycle accidents, 27 per cent can be related to operation and maintenance, 20 per cent to road design, 27 per cent to cyclist-bicycle interaction, 15 per cent to the behaviour and state of the cyclist, and 11 per cent to the interaction of the cyclist with other road users. Older age groups are involved to a greater extent than the young, in both the fatal accidents and the serious accidents – more than 40 per cent among those killed and seriously injured were 65 or older. The serious injuries among older people are characterised by injuries to the hips. In other respects, head injuries dominate among the seriously injured cyclists, and head injuries were the cause of death in 70 per cent of single bicycle accidents.

http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&amp...


Antal huvudskador utan hjälm Antal huvudskador som kunnat förhindras med hjälm - Head injuries without a helmet Head injuries that could have been prevented with a helmet
Halland 142 78
Norrbotten 145 80
Skåne 730 401
Stockholm 485 267
Värmland 101 56
Västerbotten 341 187
Västmanland 164 90
Västra Götaland 316 174
Totalt i Sverige 3 329 1 830

http://media.folksam.se/sv/2011/06/27/stort-morker...


Cyklister ligger i topp bland alla trafikanter vad gäller trafikolyckor, med både stora och små skador. Det är ett dyrt problem för samhället, säger en cykelpolis.
Google translate: Cyclists are at the top among all road users regarding traffic accidents, with both large and small injuries. It is an expensive problem for society, says a bicycle police.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordon_motor/bilar/...

Well in fairness to you, you seem to have found a piece of research the like of which I don't think I've seen before, and trust me, i've spent a lot of time reading stuff on the net from all over the world.

"Cyclists are at the top among all road users regarding traffic accidents, with both large and small injuries. It is an expensive problem for society, says a bicycle police."

Either I'm missing something in translation, or the Swedish situation is completely unique, or that piece is just plain wrong.

It has been admitted that there has been a lot of misinformation published about the veracity of cycle helmets, though all of the discredited stuff is very old, published back in the nineties.

That statement you ended with is quite incredible. I've never seen cyclists described as expensive, the complete opposite has been attributed to cyclists. When you read stuff such as this, http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/a...
I think you end up concluding that we should be paying people to cycle, not charging them.

What is the Swedish attitude to pedestrians, because pretty much everywhere else in the world they have a higher accident rate per hour than cyclists?

I wonder if I'll find any other piece from anywhere else in the world that attributes expense and a problem to cyclists?

Incidentally, what is the Danish position, 'cos as you know they have a heck of lot of non-helmet wearing cyclists too.

[Finlandia]

heebeegeetee said:

Well in fairness to you, you seem to have found a piece of research the like of which I don't think I've seen before, and trust me, i've spent a lot of time reading stuff on the net from all over the world.

"Cyclists are at the top among all road users regarding traffic accidents, with both large and small injuries. It is an expensive problem for society, says a bicycle police."

Either I'm missing something in translation, or the Swedish situation is completely unique, or that piece is just plain wrong.

It has been admitted that there has been a lot of misinformation published about the veracity of cycle helmets, though all of the discredited stuff is very old, published back in the nineties.

That statement you ended with is quite incredible. I've never seen cyclists described as expensive, the complete opposite has been attributed to cyclists. When you read stuff such as this, http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/a...
I think you end up concluding that we should be paying people to cycle, not charging them.

What is the Swedish attitude to pedestrians, because pretty much everywhere else in the world they have a higher accident rate per hour than cyclists?

I wonder if I'll find any other piece from anywhere else in the world that attributes expense and a problem to cyclists?

Incidentally, what is the Danish position, 'cos as you know they have a heck of lot of non-helmet wearing cyclists too.

I haven't got time to dig more information at the moment, will see later.


An interesting piece in that last article:
Stockholmspolisen storsatsar för att få bukt med cykelburna fartsyndare. På en knapp timme bötfälldes i går 15 personer vid Götgatsbacken i centrala Stockholm, där hastighetsgränsen är sju kilometer i timmen.

De cyklister som bötfällts har kört "extremt fort" i förhållande till de gående

Cyklister som ertappas kan direkt få böter på tusen kronor.

Google translate:
Stockholm Police invests heavily in order to overcome the bike-borne speed sinners. In less than an hour yesterday they fined 15 people at Götgatsbacken in central Stockholm, where the speed limit is seven kilometers per hour.

The cyclists fined had been riding "extremely fast" in relation to those walking

Cyclists who are caught can directly be fined one thousand crowns.

[Mave]

JagXJR said:

Thank you. About time someone saw sense.

Hey, perhaps attitudes can change with engaging after all!

Please ride safely, and respectfully. That's all I ask.

Thank you.

It's a two way street.
Please drive safely and respectfully.
Thank you.

[heebeegeetee]

Finlandia said:

I haven't got time to dig more information at the moment, will see later.


An interesting piece in that last article:
Stockholmspolisen storsatsar för att få bukt med cykelburna fartsyndare. På en knapp timme bötfälldes i går 15 personer vid Götgatsbacken i centrala Stockholm, där hastighetsgränsen är sju kilometer i timmen.

De cyklister som bötfällts har kört "extremt fort" i förhållande till de gående

Cyklister som ertappas kan direkt få böter på tusen kronor.

Google translate:
Stockholm Police invests heavily in order to overcome the bike-borne speed sinners. In less than an hour yesterday they fined 15 people at Götgatsbacken in central Stockholm, where the speed limit is seven kilometers per hour.

The cyclists fined had been riding "extremely fast" in relation to those walking

Cyclists who are caught can directly be fined one thousand crowns.

I'm trying to get my head around the idea that people who do exercise are an expense to society. I've never heard that before. Obviously there will be an expense, but the expense of people not doing exercise is absolutely enormous. Western societies are facing a timebomb regarding levels of obesity, plus heart disease and all the rest of modern ails, and cycling acknowledged as being a tremendously cost effective method of combating this because it combines exercise and transport together.

ETA: "Copenhagen authorities have calculated that society makes a net profit of 1.22 Danish kroner (around 13p) for every kilometre cycled by one of its citizens.
By the same criteria, society makes a net loss of 8p for every kilometre driven by car. "
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/a...

So is the situation totally different in Sweden where cyclists are thought to be an expense?

Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 6th March 12:46

[Finlandia]

heebeegeetee said:

I'm trying to get my head around the idea that people who do exercise are an expense to society. I've never heard that before. Obviously there will be an expense, but the expense of people not doing exercise is absolutely enormous. Western societies are facing a timebomb regarding levels of obesity, plus heart disease and all the rest of modern ails, and cycling acknowledged as being a tremendously cost effective method of combating this because it combines exercise and transport together.

It's quite easy to understand, let people out without training or education on a vehicle that is capable of higher speeds than cars in towns, without safety equipment and with very little enforcement, will cost in accident and injury treatment.

In Sweden more cyclists are injured than car drivers/passengers, 45% of all traffic related injuries are cyclists, 80% of cyclist injuries are single accidents.

– Folk cyklar för fort och struntar i trafikreglerna när de sätter sig på cykeln, säger Thomas Åsenlöf, som är cykelpolis i Göteborg och har bötfällt många cyklister som kör mot rött.

Google translate:
- People cycle too fast and ignore traffic rules when they are on the bike, says Thomas Åsenlöf, who is a bicycle police in Gothenburg. He has fined many cyclists running through red lights.

http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/fler-cyklister-an-biliste...

[Finlandia]

heebeegeetee said:

So is the situation totally different in Sweden where cyclists are thought to be an expense?

Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 6th March 12:46

Denmark being more or less totally flat, keeping the speed low? Following the traffic rules? I don't know.

The bicycle police seems to suggest that the attitude to speed and traffic rules in general are the big issues.

Edited by Finlandia on Friday 6th March 13:13

[WinstonWolf]

Finlandia said:

heebeegeetee said:

I'm trying to get my head around the idea that people who do exercise are an expense to society. I've never heard that before. Obviously there will be an expense, but the expense of people not doing exercise is absolutely enormous. Western societies are facing a timebomb regarding levels of obesity, plus heart disease and all the rest of modern ails, and cycling acknowledged as being a tremendously cost effective method of combating this because it combines exercise and transport together.

It's quite easy to understand, let people out without training or education on a vehicle that is capable of higher speeds than cars in towns, without safety equipment and with very little enforcement, will cost in accident and injury treatment.

In Sweden more cyclists are injured than car drivers/passengers, 45% of all traffic related injuries are cyclists, 80% of cyclist injuries are single accidents.

– Folk cyklar för fort och struntar i trafikreglerna när de sätter sig på cykeln, säger Thomas Åsenlöf, som är cykelpolis i Göteborg och har bötfällt många cyklister som kör mot rött.

Google translate:
- People cycle too fast and ignore traffic rules when they are on the bike, says Thomas Åsenlöf, who is a bicycle police in Gothenburg. He has fined many cyclists running through red lights.

http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/fler-cyklister-an-biliste...

Yet the NHS says that's complete bks. Despite accidents, people who cycle live longer...

[JagXJR]

WinstonWolf said:

Yet the NHS says that's incorrect. Despite accidents, people who lead a healthy lifestyle tend to live longer...

Fixed that for you.

Does not always follow, I know a man who ran and cycled everywhere, dropped dead of a heart attack at 48.

It's the whole lifestyle, not one part of it that makes the difference.

[WinstonWolf]

JagXJR said:

WinstonWolf said:

Yet the NHS says that's incorrect. Despite accidents, people who lead a healthy lifestyle tend to live longer...

Fixed that for you.

Does not always follow, I know a man who ran and cycled everywhere, dropped dead of a heart attack at 48.

It's the whole lifestyle, not one part of it that makes the difference.

The plural of anecdote is not data... You should cycle, it's good for you and you'd also understand why your overtake was poorly judged

[JagXJR]

WinstonWolf said:

JagXJR said:

WinstonWolf said:

Yet the NHS says that's incorrect. Despite accidents, people who lead a healthy lifestyle tend to live longer...

Fixed that for you.

Does not always follow, I know a man who ran and cycled everywhere, dropped dead of a heart attack at 48.

It's the whole lifestyle, not one part of it that makes the difference.

The plural of anecdote is not data... You should cycle, it's good for you and you'd also understand why your overtake was poorly judged

The 48 year old man would disagree were he able.

As I do with you about the carefully planned and executed overtake. It is not illegal to overtake another vehicle that starts an overtake as you are passing them as long as it is safe and there is room to do so.

However the comment I made in anger about throwing him wearing his cycle into a reservoir was wrong, I regret it and no matter how angry with him I was, should not have posted it on the Internet. Even if it were true, which it isn't.

There is no excuse. The Internet is a good and safe place for venting, but I really should not make such comments.

I apologize for making this ridiculous statement.

That is what I will take away from this thread, thank you for those that highlighted this for me.

[heebeegeetee]

Finlandia said:

It's quite easy to understand, let people out without training or education on a vehicle that is capable of higher speeds than cars in towns, without safety equipment and with very little enforcement, will cost in accident and injury treatment.


http://www.dn.se/ekonomi/fler-cyklister-an-biliste...

Hmm. Most of the accidents are single vehicle, so it doesn't seem to a problem of cyclists failing to interact with other traffic. Clearly, running red lights is not a significant source of accident. Are there any figures at all for casualty rates of rlj?

From your article, translated: "On road safety seminar in Tylösand lifted lack of maintenance of cycle paths forward with holes, obstacles, gravel and ice, but also how the riders behave."

So apart from Sweden having poor infrastructure (though I doubt it could be worse than the UK's) - if kids are playing on bikes and muck about and hurt themselves as a result, if this takes place in a public place does this count as a traffic accident in Sweden?

ETA: http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/pub/pdf...

Been reading this, the graph on page 409 indicates that cyclist fatality rates in Sweden are low. From the info in your article and this one though, it seems in Sweden that as helmet use goes up so does the casualty rate, which does seem to reflect what goes on in the rest of the world - there is no/very little statistical evidence that helmet use improves public health.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Friday 6th March 17:24

[Finlandia]

Utredaren Jan Schyllander, berättar att hög fart och kraftiga inbromsningar är en vanlig orsak till de olyckor som slutar i sjukhusbesök

Google translate:
The investigator Jan Schyllander, who wrote the report says that high speed and heavy braking is a common cause of accidents that ends in hospital visits


Exempel på skadeförebyggande åtgärder för att minska antalet cykelolyckor:
•Cyklisten ska använda hjälm och reflexer samt anpassa hastigheten till väglag och övrig trafik.
•Avstå alkohol. Kombinationen alkohol och cykelåkning är mycket olämplig.
•Cykelvägar bör i högre utsträckning separeras från annan trafik, vinterväghållning av cykelvägar behöver förbättras samt borttagning av lösgrus, håligheter och höga trottoarkanter.
•Cykelfabrikanter bör tillhandahålla cyklar med låsningsfria bromsar, ekerskydd och cyklar som är lätta att kliva av och på (framförallt för äldre personer).

Google translate:
Examples of mitigation measures to reduce the number of bicycle accidents:
• The rider must wear a helmet and reflexes and adjust your speed to the road conditions and traffic.
• Refrain alcohol. The combination of alcohol and cycling is very inappropriate.
• Bike paths should be greater extent separated from other traffic, winter maintenance of bicycle paths for improvement and removal of loose gravel, cavities and high curbs.
• bicycle manufacturers should provide bikes with anti-lock brakes, spokes and bikes that are easy to get on and off (particularly for older people).



Looks like it's mainly the actions of the cyclist that causes the injuries, 80% are single accidents, 8% cyclist on cyclist, a common cause being high speed (not adjusting the speed to the conditions and surroundings) and heavy braking.
This is also the view of the bicycle police.

[anonymous-user]

JagXJR said:

Getting back to topic.

Most cyclists are muppets. As demonstrated on this thread. You can't reason with them, they are arrogant, egotistical individuals and are always right.

So don't engage with them, you are wasting your time. As well as risking damage to your car.

Far better to vent on the Internet, then. Then you only have to endure the boring trolls, easier to deal with

Haha, says the bloke incapable of negotiating traffic.

[Dammit]

JagXJR is a veritable one man LOL-O-geddon.

I commend him for services to comedy, although his own descriptions of his driving suggest that he needs to sell the car and take the bus for the rest of his life - what little there is of it left too him anyway.

[heebeegeetee]

Finlandia said:

Utredaren Jan Schyllander, berättar att hög fart och kraftiga inbromsningar är en vanlig orsak till de olyckor som slutar i sjukhusbesök

Google translate:
The investigator Jan Schyllander, who wrote the report says that high speed and heavy braking is a common cause of accidents that ends in hospital visits


Exempel på skadeförebyggande åtgärder för att minska antalet cykelolyckor:
•Cyklisten ska använda hjälm och reflexer samt anpassa hastigheten till väglag och övrig trafik.
•Avstå alkohol. Kombinationen alkohol och cykelåkning är mycket olämplig.
•Cykelvägar bör i högre utsträckning separeras från annan trafik, vinterväghållning av cykelvägar behöver förbättras samt borttagning av lösgrus, håligheter och höga trottoarkanter.
•Cykelfabrikanter bör tillhandahålla cyklar med låsningsfria bromsar, ekerskydd och cyklar som är lätta att kliva av och på (framförallt för äldre personer).

Google translate:
Examples of mitigation measures to reduce the number of bicycle accidents:
• The rider must wear a helmet and reflexes and adjust your speed to the road conditions and traffic.
• Refrain alcohol. The combination of alcohol and cycling is very inappropriate.
• Bike paths should be greater extent separated from other traffic, winter maintenance of bicycle paths for improvement and removal of loose gravel, cavities and high curbs.
• bicycle manufacturers should provide bikes with anti-lock brakes, spokes and bikes that are easy to get on and off (particularly for older people).



Looks like it's mainly the actions of the cyclist that causes the injuries, 80% are single accidents, 8% cyclist on cyclist, a common cause being high speed (not adjusting the speed to the conditions and surroundings) and heavy braking.
This is also the view of the bicycle police.

Whenever I engage in these debates I constantly have to remind that I am only talking about ordinary, utility cycling, and the fact that it is no more dangerous than any other normal activity.

In efforts to prove me wrong people constantly cite what happens to people who engage in high speed, off-road and/or stunt-type cycling such as bmx.

You are citing evidence from high speed cycling involving heavy braking. I'm not talking about that, I an talking about cycling such as this, shown in this film of everyday cycling in Malmo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvnGKI_rEoo

Earlier in this thread, you stated as fact that cycle helmets will save you from head injury. But the real fact is is that the countries with the highest rates of helemt use also have the highest rates of cyling head injury, and the countries with the lowest rates of helmet use also have the lowest rates of cycling head injury.

Sweden's figures are rather astonishing imo with 45% of traffic injuries being suffered by cyclists. That still means that a similar figure of injuries are being suffered by motorists though, desoite the enormous increases in car safety. If car occupants were forced to wear helmets it is beleived that the numbers of lives saved would be greater than the numbers of cyclists lives saved.

So Finlandia, why don't you wear a helmet when driving?

[JagXJR]

yonex said:

Haha, says the bloke incapable of negotiating traffic.

At least I'm not incapable of keeping to the speed limit.

Or whinging on the internet about it.

And then refusing to back up your claims.

Do you realise you are the one being laughed at?