Do you 'engage' with cyclists?

[Dammit]

Do you think you could re-post them? I don't really want to trawl back through JagXJR failing to get the point for pages and pages.

[mygoldfishbowl]

'engage'? No, I don't even talk to people that I've found out are cyclists. Why should I talk to people who make silly choses in life & ride on busy roads.

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Sunday 8th March 19:47

[Devil2575]

daveinhampshire said:

I don't have an issue with cyclists or horses, I give both as much room as possible. Like most things, if someone has a chip on their shoulder riding a bike or driving a car will make no difference, they're idiots in or on either.

Stop being so reasonable! This is PH!

[mygoldfishbowl]

yonex said:

Yes, run away boy, you have no answers. Sorry it never worked out trying spin things around.

34?

[Dammit]

mygoldfishbowl said:

'engage'? No, I don't even talk to people that I've found out are cyclists. Why should I talk to people who make silly choses in life & ride on busy roads.

Edited by mygoldfishbowl on Sunday 8th March 19:47

You might need medical treatment, or some legal advice?

[Mave]

JagXJR said:

Mave said:

Great, so there is absolutely no need to sound your horn as you pass.

As you said yourself, you anticipated everything except for the cyclist's response to your horn (which itself I find a little strange, I would expect an advanced driver to realise a horn could be interpreted as aggressive.

So if you anticipated everything that actually happened, and had an escape plan for everything that might happen, there should be need to use your horn.

So why are horns fitted to cars then? If everyone drove/rode correctly, as you say they would not be needed.

Agreed, if everyone drove / rode correctly they would not be needed. I normally have a word with myself if I use mine; except for on tight country roads as a warning to traffic come the other way, I regard it as a last ditch attempt to sort out a botched situation

JagXJR said:

I just drop back and leave the space I am comfortable with. I don't sound the horn without a need to, or flash my lights or make any gestures. I leave that to the muppets out there.

So someone else who sounds their horn when someone intrudes into their safe space is a muppet? But its a "courtesy beep" when you do it?

JagXJR said:

No I don't expect someone's reaction to a perfectly legal sounding of the horn alerting them to the fact I was there (since they couldn't be bothered to look) to be a illegal reaction like abuse. As a normal well-balanced human being why would I? That I find a little strange!

That's not what I said, is it? Go and read it again. I commented that sounding a horn could be interpreted as being aggresive and you, as a nearly advanced driver should be aware of how your actions can be interpreted even if that's not what you intended.

JagXJR said:

As to being a liar, I have already apologised for that, shame some of you can't admit when you are wrong instead of flogging the same dead horse!

I haven't referred to you as being a liar.
As for flogging the same dead horse - as long as you keep declaring yourself to be without fault in this incident whilst making contradictory statements, people are going to keep flogging. People who have been on the tail end of aggressive, ill considered, unsafe overtakes.

[Finlandia]

Dammit said:

Do you think you could re-post them?

Finlandia said:

Single bicycle accidents. Analysis of hospital injury data and interviews

Abstract The objective of this project was to study single bicycle accidents, to see how these can be avoided and how the injuries due to these can be alleviated. The in-depth studies of fatal accidents by the Swedish Traffic Administration, and hospital reported accidents in the database Strada have been analysed. The focus was on the single bicycle accidents resulting in death or serious injury, and the data for 2007–2011 were included. In addition, 32 seriously injured cyclists were interviewed about the accident in which they had been involved. Of all the cyclists who need emergency treatment, eight out of ten had been injured in a single accident. In addition, on average five cyclists were killed every year in a single bicycle accident. In all, during the five-year period studied, 125 cyclists were killed. Of the 1,274 seriously injured in single bicycle accidents, 27 per cent can be related to operation and maintenance, 20 per cent to road design, 27 per cent to cyclist-bicycle interaction, 15 per cent to the behaviour and state of the cyclist, and 11 per cent to the interaction of the cyclist with other road users. Older age groups are involved to a greater extent than the young, in both the fatal accidents and the serious accidents – more than 40 per cent among those killed and seriously injured were 65 or older. The serious injuries among older people are characterised by injuries to the hips. In other respects, head injuries dominate among the seriously injured cyclists, and head injuries were the cause of death in 70 per cent of single bicycle accidents.

http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&amp...


Antal huvudskador utan hjälm Antal huvudskador som kunnat förhindras med hjälm - Head injuries without a helmet Head injuries that could have been prevented with a helmet
Halland 142 78
Norrbotten 145 80
Skåne 730 401
Stockholm 485 267
Värmland 101 56
Västerbotten 341 187
Västmanland 164 90
Västra Götaland 316 174
Totalt i Sverige 3 329 1 830

http://media.folksam.se/sv/2011/06/27/stort-morker...


Cyklister ligger i topp bland alla trafikanter vad gäller trafikolyckor, med både stora och små skador. Det är ett dyrt problem för samhället, säger en cykelpolis.
Google translate: Cyclists are at the top among all road users regarding traffic accidents, with both large and small injuries. It is an expensive problem for society, says a bicycle police.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/fordon_motor/bilar/...

[Dammit]

Ok, there's a mix of things there, the top one is interesting as a study, but not relevant to traffic interactions.

The second paragraph - first number is the actual head injury count, second number the estimate of the number of said injuries that would have (in their view) been mitigated by wearing a helmet?

Final bit - I've run the article through Google translate, but the only figure is the number of cyclists accidents.

Where are you getting the figure for all other road users requiring hospitalisation being lower than 23,000?

Edited by Dammit on Sunday 8th March 20:07

[Finlandia]

Dammit said:

Ok, there's a mix of things there, the top one is interesting as a study, but not relevant to traffic interactions.

The second paragraph - first number is the actual head injury count, second number the estimate of the number of said injuries that would have (in their view) been mitigated by wearing a helmet?

Final bit - I've run the article through Google translate, but the only figure is the number of cyclists accidents.

Where are you getting the figure for all other road users requiring hospitalisation being lower than 23,000?

Edited by Dammit on Sunday 8th March 20:07

That's the thing though, 88% of cycling accidents involve only cyclists, single accidents or bike on bike.

According to Folksam, a very renowned accident research company and insurance company, those are the head injuries that would have been avoided if a helmet was used.

It says in the article that the number of seriously injured cyclists is higher than that of the seriously injured motorists.

[Dammit]

Which is interesting for sure, but does show that Sweden cannot be used as a comparison with other countries as it's so (to an incredible degree, frankly) different to conditions/results in the rest of the world.

[Dammit]

Actually determining why Sweden is so divergent would be fascinating.

Ice/weather maybe?

[Finlandia]

Dammit said:

Which is interesting for sure, but does show that Sweden cannot be used as a comparison with other countries as it's so (to an incredible degree, frankly) different to conditions/results in the rest of the world.

Each and everyone can make what they want of it, but the statistics paint a very dark picture of cyclists here.

Sweden is one of the safest countries in the world when it comes to traffic, just not when it comes to cycling, and nearly all cycling accidents are single accidents or involves another cyclist.

[Finlandia]

Dammit said:

Actually determining why Sweden is so divergent would be fascinating.

Ice/weather maybe?

According to the bicycle police, high speed and disrespect for traffic rules are the main issues.

[Dammit]

I think you are putting a certain spin on this, the article said that the cyclists were breaking a 7km/h limit - which I presume was on a shared path with pedestrians.

Given that that is walking pace then yes- every single cyclist is likely to be speeding.

Do you really have police in Sweden who are purely dedicated to cyclists?

Are you aware that your two articles directly contradict one another btw?

[Mr Gear]

Finlandia said:

That's the thing though, 88% of cycling accidents involve only cyclists, single accidents or bike on bike.

According to Folksam, a very renowned accident research company and insurance company, those are the head injuries that would have been avoided if a helmet was used.

I tripped over my bike in the garage earlier when I was looking for a cleaning cloth. If only I'd been wearing a helmet when cleaning the bathroom it would never have happened!

[IroningMan]

Those articles paint a very bizarre picture of cycling in Sweden.

[Dammit]

They do don't they?

Sweden has a population of 9.6 million, and if we take Finlandia's first figure of 23,000 accidents requiring hospitalisation that gives us on in every 418 Swedes visiting the Hospital each year due to a bike accident.

Lets compare that to the UK - 64 million people and 19,000 accidents requiring hospitalisation - or one in every 3,368 people.

Which suggests that the conditions in Sweden are incredibly tough for cyclists.

[Dammit]

Does JagXJR live in Sweden?

[Finlandia]

Dammit said:

I think you are putting a certain spin on this, the article said that the cyclists were breaking a 7km/h limit - which I presume was on a shared path with pedestrians.

Given that that is walking pace then yes- every single cyclist is likely to be speeding.

Do you really have police in Sweden who are purely dedicated to cyclists?

Are you aware that your two articles directly contradict one another btw?

Yes, in the article it was on a shared road, with very low speed limit. But the police are saying that speeding is an issue with cyclists. In Sweden cyclists have the same speed limits as cars, and enforcement has been in place for some time now in different places, not just in low speed pedestrian zones.

There are bike riding police that are patrolling cycle paths and town centres, and now and then 'regular' police join forces and catch red light jumpers and so on. So yes, there is a special police for cyclists, but they are not only targeting cyclists.

Contradict in what way? Can't really remember everything in them now.

[heebeegeetee]

Finlandia said:

According to Folksam, a very renowned accident research company and insurance company, those are the head injuries that would have been avoided if a helmet was used.

I'm posting in haste so can't post the links to my points, but:

"those are the head injuries that would have been avoided if a helmet was used." The claims made to the efficacy of helmets is simply enourmous. Claims such as this, and the huge numbers of people on forums such as PH who truly beleive that a helmet has saved their life, is simply not backed up anywhere in the world where helmet use has been strobgly promoted or made mandaotory.

There is a simply massive disconnect between anecdotal evidence and actual data.

The *only* method by which helmets have been shown to reduce injury is by them reducing the numbers of people who cycle. In one juristiction cyclist numbers went down by 44% in two years. Did cycling related injuries go down by 44%? No, cycling injuries actually went UP, meaning the remaining cyclists were nearly 2.5 times more likely to suffer an injury 2 years after the helmet law than 2 years before.

Head injuries do go down where helmet laws are introduced - but only beciase cyclist numbers go down by a larger amount, which meands the remaining cyclists are in greater danger. Society then loses out on the health and environmental benefits of cycling. Deaths link to obesity and lack of exercise dwarf those caused by cycling.

Fact is, despite all the claims of efficacy and the high numbers of people convinced a helmet has saved them, where helmet use is high so are head injury rates; where helmet use is low head injury rates are low. Where helmet use is high, obesity is high, and vice versa.

Australia has had helmet laws for 20 years now. In that time the numbers of chikldren who cycled or walked to school has gone from 80% to 5%. Australia is now one of the most obese nations, having overtaken America.

Finlandia's figures do seem strange to me. They seem to differ dramatically not only the rest of the world but also the rest of Scandinavia. I still say I've never heard of exercise costing a nation, I've only heard of the direct opposite. Everywhere cyclist numbers have gone down, overall health, obesity and air quality have got worse. I don't think there is anywhere in the world that can show public health has been improved by helemt campaigns.

Beware of unintended consequences: Austin Texas introduced a helmet law. Cyclist numbers plummted. There was a right hoo-haa so the law was repealed for adults. Then it was discovered that 90% of tickets given to children not wearing helemts had been given to black and hispanic kids. After the hoo-hah from that the Police stopped enforcing the law. Meantime there was no discenible difference made to injury rates.

Helemt laws have been repealed elsewhere in the states, indeed as have motorcycle helmet laws, (but that's a topic I don't want to get into).

Pedestrian and car occupant casualty rates in the US are high, possibly at a higher rate than elsewhere in the world. It might be the case that cyclists were down the list of road users who could do with wearing a helmet.