RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
The Crack Fox said:
Not sure what you did with the quoting there, but I get your message.
The styling doesn't appeal to me. And I'm the kind of person who should be buying this car, that's my point. Look at those pictures. Lexarse inspired lights, fussy spoiler, odd ride height, overly aggressive front styling, and (in this instance) appliance white paint. Now, that might appeal to you, and others, but it doesn't appeal to me.
The irony is that Toyota did the difficult bit - making it fun to drive, yet they got the easy bit - making it look good to potential buyers, wrong.
Which of my cars look better? I dunno. What does it matter? I'd feel less of a chav in my (now dead) Metro. But, remember, that's just my opinion. Yours may differ
I agree with most of that - the lights, wheels, rear spoiler, ride height all look a bit rubbish - but I'd change them if I bought one (.. I'm in a minority in that it makes the car more appealing!)The styling doesn't appeal to me. And I'm the kind of person who should be buying this car, that's my point. Look at those pictures. Lexarse inspired lights, fussy spoiler, odd ride height, overly aggressive front styling, and (in this instance) appliance white paint. Now, that might appeal to you, and others, but it doesn't appeal to me.
The irony is that Toyota did the difficult bit - making it fun to drive, yet they got the easy bit - making it look good to potential buyers, wrong.
Which of my cars look better? I dunno. What does it matter? I'd feel less of a chav in my (now dead) Metro. But, remember, that's just my opinion. Yours may differ
Edited by The Crack Fox on Thursday 26th February 13:34
As someone who used to do about 15,000 miles a year in a tatty mr2 turbo this car seemed to be the perfect fit for me. Only problem is now my commute is a 20 minute train ride, so I bought a slightly less tatty mr2 for trackdays and the odd hoon.
It felt a bit stupid to spend so much money on a new/nearly new car that i'd hardly use and even then if I bin the mr2 on track it wont cost much to reshell or buy another one.
If I was still commuting by car it would be my first choice no doubt, I wouldnt be too worried about the power deficit seeing as booting it with 300+bhp usualy feels like i'm going to get in trouble fast on the road at least.
I did a quick skidpan session in a gt86 at goodwood a while back and I dont understand the interior complaints, the fact that all the controls were perfectly placed for actual driving was a big plus for me and it had nice comfy seats. I dont realy care about the texture of buttons or if I get a boner from stroking the dash or whatever tbh.
The only thing I dont realy like are the wheels, which is a problem easily solved with a nice set of lightweight enkeis/volks/oz/bbs etc. Honestly these cars look so much nicer on anything but the standard wheels which look like something out of halfords. Another minor complaint is the daft looking rear wing which is standard on every uk car, on the us cars it seems to be an option and it looks much nicer without imo.
It felt a bit stupid to spend so much money on a new/nearly new car that i'd hardly use and even then if I bin the mr2 on track it wont cost much to reshell or buy another one.
If I was still commuting by car it would be my first choice no doubt, I wouldnt be too worried about the power deficit seeing as booting it with 300+bhp usualy feels like i'm going to get in trouble fast on the road at least.
I did a quick skidpan session in a gt86 at goodwood a while back and I dont understand the interior complaints, the fact that all the controls were perfectly placed for actual driving was a big plus for me and it had nice comfy seats. I dont realy care about the texture of buttons or if I get a boner from stroking the dash or whatever tbh.
The only thing I dont realy like are the wheels, which is a problem easily solved with a nice set of lightweight enkeis/volks/oz/bbs etc. Honestly these cars look so much nicer on anything but the standard wheels which look like something out of halfords. Another minor complaint is the daft looking rear wing which is standard on every uk car, on the us cars it seems to be an option and it looks much nicer without imo.
McFarnsworth said:
I was in the market for one, and ended up with a used Cayman instead.
Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
I'd love to see the man maths calculations behind that one!!Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
underphil said:
McFarnsworth said:
I was in the market for one, and ended up with a used Cayman instead.
Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
I'd love to see the man maths calculations behind that one!!Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
RobM77 said:
... I reckon the percentage of people on here who prioritise handling over power, multi-cylinder sonorous engines, image, rarity or badge, is vanishingly small.
Not everyone who does can get on with the GT-86I test drove it with pretty high expectations. A 2+2 lightweight with 200bhp was high on my list of cars at the time. However it felt heavier than I expected and it felt like the engine was a way off the 200bhp quoted. Driving position was excellent, the interior was acceptable. The handling was good, but for some reason I couldn't really get into it.
Just not for me.
Prior to launch, the brief seemed very promising -- especially the emphasis on affordability, minimal weight and the enthusiast-oriented chassis. We did not complain that output was to be adequate (and not freighted with torque). This was to be a 21st-century revival of the golden age of sports car motoring.
Then... they pulled the cover off. And there was nothing feline or sexy about it.
"The BRZ should have been a beautiful car,” he said bluntly. “It’s not beautiful.”
underphil said:
I'd love to see the man maths calculations behind that one!!
I live in Belgium, so we have a different tax system and depreciation is less savage, that might skew results somewhat.But whatever the Porsche costs more in annual tax (£300 vs £500), maintenance and repairs, it claws it all back when it comes to depreciation.
Insurance is low enough for both to not make much of a difference (around £360), the difference in fuel economy is also negligible with the miles I do. And the registration tax, that you don't even have, was pretty much identical due to the age difference (yes, it's a weird system) (£700).
Conscript said:
That was the only thing I was rebuking....I'd consider "making progress" and "daily driving" two different things. There's no way anyone could make much progress on my daily commute regardless of power, unless they were suicidal. I was just saying that there is no way the car needs to be redlined constantly to negotiate pulling out of junctions, sitting in a queue of traffic at 30MPH or anything else I'd consider as "daily driving".
Oh totally. I take my time on the roads. But if I want to make a quick overtake, for a normal car I'd rather have some power in reserve at 70mph in 6th instead of needing to drop a few gears to get past. I've absolutely loved this aspect of my Megane and that's why I've kept it so long.Conscript said:
Absolutely fair enough, I can understand that. No offence was intended or anything
None taken I ran my 2008 Cayman 2.7 manual for 22 months, bought privately (£18,500 so lower initial outlay - I seem to remember I could have picked up a new GT86 for £22,500).
Excluding fuel it cost me around £3500 for this period (servicing, parts and depreciation). A GT86 would have cost several times as much and was nowhere near the car. I was actually a little disappointed by the price I achieved for my Cayman but depreciation was pretty negligible and nothing whatsoever went wrong with it. By far the best car I've ever owned.
Excluding fuel it cost me around £3500 for this period (servicing, parts and depreciation). A GT86 would have cost several times as much and was nowhere near the car. I was actually a little disappointed by the price I achieved for my Cayman but depreciation was pretty negligible and nothing whatsoever went wrong with it. By far the best car I've ever owned.
It doesn't help that the dealers are more used to selling disability cars to pensioners. There never seemed to be much enthusiasm for them.
I have one and love it (27 months in), have re-trimmed some of the dashboard to make a bit more attractive and done a couple of small mods. It is my daily driver and I drop my two kids off at school every morning and will be doing the weekly shop on my way home from work tonight (quite a big boot!). Coming from an MX-5 Mk3 (via a Mito QV), it is a much quicker and practical car and easily the best car I've taken round the Nürburgring.
If I wanted it any quicker you can get a turbo or supercharger dropped in for a lot less than £10k.
It is surprisingly good on consumables too, three track days and 22k of motoring and only changed oils etc. Tyres and brakes still got plenty of life left.
I have had a couple of thoughts of changing it, but there is nothing I fancy that ticks all the boxes for me at the moment.
I have one and love it (27 months in), have re-trimmed some of the dashboard to make a bit more attractive and done a couple of small mods. It is my daily driver and I drop my two kids off at school every morning and will be doing the weekly shop on my way home from work tonight (quite a big boot!). Coming from an MX-5 Mk3 (via a Mito QV), it is a much quicker and practical car and easily the best car I've taken round the Nürburgring.
If I wanted it any quicker you can get a turbo or supercharger dropped in for a lot less than £10k.
It is surprisingly good on consumables too, three track days and 22k of motoring and only changed oils etc. Tyres and brakes still got plenty of life left.
I have had a couple of thoughts of changing it, but there is nothing I fancy that ticks all the boxes for me at the moment.
Edited by chopper602 on Thursday 26th February 15:42
Fittster said:
Toyota's mistake was building a car that people said they would buy not a car that they would buy.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
My father tells a story of an attempt by Ford to engage the Ford enthusiast community in coming up with their next performance car (I think this was about 15 years ago). He might come along in a bit and tell it better than me; it may have involved the RS Owner's Club. Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
They told Ford they wanted 200hp, no more than 1,000kg and definitely rear wheel drive. At a price tag of no more than £10,000.
Ford laughed at them.
ant leigh said:
Fittster said:
Toyota's mistake was building a car that people said they would buy not a car that they would buy.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
Classic lesson for market research in general.
Don't trust what your customer says they will do/want etc.
It was never going to do well in the UK or Europe, unless there had been a very weak Yen against the pound.
chopper602 said:
It doesn't help that the dealers are more used to selling disability cars to pensioners. There never seemed to be much enthusiasm for them.
I have one and love it (27 months in), have re-trimmed some of the dashboard to make a bit more attractive and done a couple of small mods. It is my daily driver and I drop my two kids off at school every morning and will be doing the weekly shop on my way home from work tonight (quite a big boot!). Coming from an MX-5 Mk3 (via a Mito QV), it is a much quicker and practical car and easily the best car I've taken round the Nürburgring.
If I wanted it any quicker you can get a turbo or supercharger dropped in for a lot less than £10k.
It is surprisingly good on consumables too, three track days and 22k of motoring and only changed oils etc. Tyres and brakes still got plenty of life left.
I have had a couple of thoughts of changing it, but there is nothing I fancy that ticks all the boxes for me at the moment.
3 track days and 22,000 miles and still on the same set of brake pads and tyres?!I have one and love it (27 months in), have re-trimmed some of the dashboard to make a bit more attractive and done a couple of small mods. It is my daily driver and I drop my two kids off at school every morning and will be doing the weekly shop on my way home from work tonight (quite a big boot!). Coming from an MX-5 Mk3 (via a Mito QV), it is a much quicker and practical car and easily the best car I've taken round the Nürburgring.
If I wanted it any quicker you can get a turbo or supercharger dropped in for a lot less than £10k.
It is surprisingly good on consumables too, three track days and 22k of motoring and only changed oils etc. Tyres and brakes still got plenty of life left.
I have had a couple of thoughts of changing it, but there is nothing I fancy that ticks all the boxes for me at the moment.
Edited by chopper602 on Thursday 26th February 15:42
Doesn't sound like you push the car much.
Johnnytheboy said:
Fittster said:
Toyota's mistake was building a car that people said they would buy not a car that they would buy.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
My father tells a story of an attempt by Ford to engage the Ford enthusiast community in coming up with their next performance car (I think this was about 15 years ago). He might come along in a bit and tell it better than me; it may have involved the RS Owner's Club. Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
They told Ford they wanted 200hp, no more than 1,000kg and definitely rear wheel drive. At a price tag of no more than £10,000.
Ford laughed at them.
Ford then patiently asked them what they really wanted, and the response was that what they really really wanted was a modern re-statement of the Escort Mexico or the beaky-nose Escort RS2000 of the 1970s, but with modern styling, and above all, with rear-wheel-drive. They couldn't see why or how it would be too difficult to provide a front-engine/rear-drive platform.
Oh, and by the way, that was when a front-wheel-drive RS2000 was selling for about £15,000, and they thought that a simple rear-drive car should surely be economically saleable at £10,000.
I remind you that Ford was not making small rear-wheel-drive cars of any type by then, and they thought this was a wind-up. They did not, and have not since, take them seriously.
Edited by AAGR on Thursday 26th February 18:31
I think of the reasons this hasn't sold well is Toyota misjudged the market for it, people said they wanted a modest power RWD...we can do that! Unfortunately Hot hatches in the last 3 years have become infinitely more potent, we're over 300bhp now it ludicrous, most drivers lack the skill to piush a car safely round a corner but are much braver in a straight line.
When you look at the successful BMW 1 series coupe and now the 2 series, most of the cars available on Autotrader are diesel suggesting the people in the market for a small rwd coupe likely have company cars.
When you look at the successful BMW 1 series coupe and now the 2 series, most of the cars available on Autotrader are diesel suggesting the people in the market for a small rwd coupe likely have company cars.
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