RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
braddo said:
ant leigh said:
Fittster said:
Toyota's mistake was building a car that people said they would buy not a car that they would buy.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
Never trust an enthusiast, lots of talk, very little buying. Lotus could have provided some useful consultancy on this particular issue.
Classic lesson for market research in general.
Don't trust what your customer says they will do/want etc.
It was never going to do well in the UK or Europe, unless there had been a very weak Yen against the pound.
ant leigh said:
It wasn't a comment about motor cars but about market research and focus groups generally. Potential customer's often a) don't tell the truth or b)don't actually know what the truth is when in a particular situation but tell you something anyway.
They asked people like my dad, bemoan a gap in the market for a product they aspire to owning, but when the gap is filled they decide that actually when it comes to spending real money they would choose the option that already existed.AAGR said:
As someone who had contacts within Ford Marketing for a time, I can confirm this, and add a few snippets of my own. The meeting took place in the mid-1990s at the request of the RS OC, who did not seem to warm to either the Escort RS2000 of the day(they thought it was too expensive and front-wheel-drive, which they did not like), or to the Escort RS Cosworth, which they thought was much too expensive.
Ford then patiently asked them what they really wanted, and the response was that what they really really wanted was a modern re-statement of the Escort Mexico or the beaky-nose Escort RS2000 of the 1970s, but with modern styling, and above all, with rear-wheel-drive. They couldn't see why or how it would be too difficult to provide a front-engine/rear-drive platform.
Oh, and by the way, that was when a front-wheel-drive RS2000 was selling for about £15,000, and they thought that a simple rear-drive car should surely be economically saleable at £10,000.
I remind you that Ford was not making small rear-wheel-drive cars of any type by then, and thought this was a wind-up. They did not, and have not since, taken them seriously.
Sounds like they had no idea how huge the development costs are for a new chassis, or they were just trying their luck?!Ford then patiently asked them what they really wanted, and the response was that what they really really wanted was a modern re-statement of the Escort Mexico or the beaky-nose Escort RS2000 of the 1970s, but with modern styling, and above all, with rear-wheel-drive. They couldn't see why or how it would be too difficult to provide a front-engine/rear-drive platform.
Oh, and by the way, that was when a front-wheel-drive RS2000 was selling for about £15,000, and they thought that a simple rear-drive car should surely be economically saleable at £10,000.
I remind you that Ford was not making small rear-wheel-drive cars of any type by then, and thought this was a wind-up. They did not, and have not since, taken them seriously.
If Ford said to me what car would I like, the only restriction is that it has to be profitable?
Two seater FWD coupe with everything identical to a Fiesta ST, with supercar-like styling inside and out, with an optional targa/panoramic glass roof.
Basically a modern, better CR-X Del Sol or Ford Puma, with low-ish costs and supercar-ish looks. They'd get some customers for sure, but would it make any money? Errr...
iloveboost said:
Sounds like they had no idea how huge the development costs are for a new chassis, or they were just trying their luck?!
If Ford said to me what car would I like, the only restriction is that it has to be profitable?
Two seater FWD coupe with everything identical to a Fiesta ST, with supercar-like styling inside and out, with an optional targa/panoramic glass roof.
Basically a modern, better CR-X Del Sol or Ford Puma, with low-ish costs and supercar-ish looks. They'd get some customers for sure, but would it make any money? Errr...
well, if ford asked me, I would say that a modern day capri would be excellent. Just take the 2.3 ecoboost from the mustang and stick it in a smaller and lighter 2+2 body. And the 2.3 would be the top of the range, if they could snap in a less powerful petrol option and a mid range diesel I think they would be a cracking car. The 2.3 going for 30k or maybe a little less, diesel for around 25 and basic for around 20. This would be a car with both tradition, looks and engines to beat its competitors. I suppose that it is relatively easy to shorten a bit the mustang and make a new car out of that (I do not know if the platform is modular, I suppose it is not). The hard part would be shaving 200kg out of the fat-ass mustang in order to obtain something in which the 2.3 felt top of the range and a worthy m135 rival.If Ford said to me what car would I like, the only restriction is that it has to be profitable?
Two seater FWD coupe with everything identical to a Fiesta ST, with supercar-like styling inside and out, with an optional targa/panoramic glass roof.
Basically a modern, better CR-X Del Sol or Ford Puma, with low-ish costs and supercar-ish looks. They'd get some customers for sure, but would it make any money? Errr...
But the amateur CEO wannabe in me can see margins of profitability for Ford doing that.
Most people, and judging by the posts in this thread most PH'ers too, simply do not get this car.
It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
sutats said:
The GT86/BRZ could've taken a page from Honda's Type R series specifically (DC2/EK9) from over a decade ago and reformulated it for today.
The JDM Integra and JDM Civic Type R's were spartan (which made them relatively light), had a bullet-proof high-revving engine and gearbox. It also had a couple of superb interior performance accents like Recaro Seats and Momo Steering wheel. Overall the car had a very respectable power to weight ratio for its time. But to be fair they were the "extreme" version of already sportive models.
That's pretty much exactly what the GT86/BRZ is. I ran a DC2 for 8 years before my BRZ, and they are very similar in many ways.The JDM Integra and JDM Civic Type R's were spartan (which made them relatively light), had a bullet-proof high-revving engine and gearbox. It also had a couple of superb interior performance accents like Recaro Seats and Momo Steering wheel. Overall the car had a very respectable power to weight ratio for its time. But to be fair they were the "extreme" version of already sportive models.
I think if it was better looking it would have sold more. It wouldn't take much to make it pretty handsome - lose the ghastly 'halfords special' wheels and lights and it would be pretty much there. That way you might tempt some posers out of their TTs. They could always make a Lexus version with a bit more soundproofing, a nicer interior and a posher badge if they wanted a slice of that, and leave a rawer Toyota/Subaru version for the enthusiast.
Agreed with the above by Alex. I still can't comprehend the comments about it being slow. I drove one straight after driving my M5. At no point did I think it was slow. I could maybe understand a little if you're used to turbo power delivery. I think anyone who claims it's slow ought to go drive an SDI Golf or Lupo to give them a better reference.
A shame that they're not selling, because in the future it it will be supply < demand and prices will remain relatively high. Why haven't I bought one? Two reasons. Firstly, too expensive, both outright and especially on finance as has been discussed, with no discounts or incentives and limited options. Secondly, I really want a drop-top. The convertible GT86 never materialised - but realistically it would have been a £30k car, which is difficult to justify against a new MX-5, used Boxsters etc.
rallycross said:
I just checked on autotrader and a lot of the main dealer GT86's listed on autotrader are automatic, this does not seem like a car that you'd chose with an auto box, anyone driven an auto v's manual?
I have. I drove them back to back on the same roads. The auto ruined the sharp throttle response of the car unless you used the sport manual mode. In 'D' the throttle mapping was not far off a BMW in Eco Pro, i.e. woeful. Fun to click the paddles, especially downshift blips, and no doubt a saviour in traffic, but not good enough to choose over the manual IMO. I'm still lost at just how many in dealer lots are autos. Has that put off customers who couldn't try a manual? Maybe there's been confused messages about the mix of manuals and autos, as high-end sportscars are mostly auto now - fine for them but it falls down completely when matched to a torque-light, rev-happy engine.A shame that they're not selling, because in the future it it will be supply < demand and prices will remain relatively high. Why haven't I bought one? Two reasons. Firstly, too expensive, both outright and especially on finance as has been discussed, with no discounts or incentives and limited options. Secondly, I really want a drop-top. The convertible GT86 never materialised - but realistically it would have been a £30k car, which is difficult to justify against a new MX-5, used Boxsters etc.
If the rear seat were a little more accommodating then it would have been a more practical car and differentiated itself from the MX5. My wife and I would have one (as her car to accompany my larger 4 door) but need both of our cars to be able to take growing children - not discounted the GT86 yet but a larger back seat would have made the decision easier.
Steve
Steve
Thanks goodness this is the general consensus. More for me to buy second hand in the future I hope! I'd love to see the percentage of people commenting on this thread who have never driven it for an extended period of time versus those who have.
Truly brilliant car. Handles better than a MK3 MX5, looks better, is faster and you CAN fit four people in it (I'll admit it's a squeeze but has been done)
Not only that you can fit an enormous amount of stuff in the boot for the type of car it is. I simply couldn't drive an MX5 daily as I need to put things in the boot for work, but I carried a lot of stuff in my BRZ. The boot was designed to carry 4 track wheels with tyres, with the seats down, so pretty big.
Not to mention 40mpg on a run. Loved that car and I'm desperate to get another when personal circumstances change. Sounds like I'm going to be able to have my pick of the second hand market
.
Oh.. and anyone mentioning insurance, I was 22 when I had mine and it was £400 a year. Mental cheap.
Truly brilliant car. Handles better than a MK3 MX5, looks better, is faster and you CAN fit four people in it (I'll admit it's a squeeze but has been done)
Not only that you can fit an enormous amount of stuff in the boot for the type of car it is. I simply couldn't drive an MX5 daily as I need to put things in the boot for work, but I carried a lot of stuff in my BRZ. The boot was designed to carry 4 track wheels with tyres, with the seats down, so pretty big.
Not to mention 40mpg on a run. Loved that car and I'm desperate to get another when personal circumstances change. Sounds like I'm going to be able to have my pick of the second hand market
.Oh.. and anyone mentioning insurance, I was 22 when I had mine and it was £400 a year. Mental cheap.
Edited by JamesL91 on Thursday 26th February 18:18
Most people buy cars on PCP these days, especially the younger sort of folk that this car was probably targeted at.
It's neither fast enough or cheap enough (on pcp) to compete with the £25k hot hatches or focussed enough to compete with the elise. It's not trendy enough to compete with the TT for women/poseurs.
It's neither fast enough or cheap enough (on pcp) to compete with the £25k hot hatches or focussed enough to compete with the elise. It's not trendy enough to compete with the TT for women/poseurs.
Thanks to this thread I really want to have a go in one of these now, I didn't before as the pricing was silly.
On the comparison to the mk3 MX5, it always amazes me how few people spotted that Mazda completely ballsed up the chassis development on that car. Out of the magazines it seemed that only Evo picked up on it, everyone else raved about it which just goes to show how few people ever actually pushed the car to its limits. We owned a 2.0 sport from new specced with the Mazdaspeed lowering springs and geo checked, as I have said many times on here it couldn't see which way our 968 went cross country due to its pretty useless suspension/wheels/tyre package, stacks of grip just no composure and poor dynamic balance on bumpy british roads made it blooming scary when it started to move around at speed. It always felt to me like they had got more than a couple of fundamental things badly wrong. The car would have been 100% better IMHE if it didn't have those issues. If the BRZ/GT86 fixes those issues it must be a great car and would/will undoubtably be very desirable in years to come when more people who care about these things drive them and post thousands of eulogies all over the internet to help drive up the prices.
On the comparison to the mk3 MX5, it always amazes me how few people spotted that Mazda completely ballsed up the chassis development on that car. Out of the magazines it seemed that only Evo picked up on it, everyone else raved about it which just goes to show how few people ever actually pushed the car to its limits. We owned a 2.0 sport from new specced with the Mazdaspeed lowering springs and geo checked, as I have said many times on here it couldn't see which way our 968 went cross country due to its pretty useless suspension/wheels/tyre package, stacks of grip just no composure and poor dynamic balance on bumpy british roads made it blooming scary when it started to move around at speed. It always felt to me like they had got more than a couple of fundamental things badly wrong. The car would have been 100% better IMHE if it didn't have those issues. If the BRZ/GT86 fixes those issues it must be a great car and would/will undoubtably be very desirable in years to come when more people who care about these things drive them and post thousands of eulogies all over the internet to help drive up the prices.
JamesL91 said:
Oh.. and anyone mentioning insurance, I was 22 when I had mine and it was £400 a year. Mental cheap.
WTF.Edited by JamesL91 on Thursday 26th February 18:18
A few years back I told myself I'd buy an RX8 when I could afford one. I can now, but I wouldn't buy one. This is the new plan, assuming they're not falling to bits come the time.
Alex said:
Most people, and judging by the posts in this thread most PH'ers too, simply do not get this car.
It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
This 100%.It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
I'm one of the minority that preferred the BRZ over the GT86, but I am a bit of a Subaru fanboy.
No, I didn't buy one either, but purely down to cost. Had they offered a crazy finance deal I would have one on the drive now (and never mind legroom for my kids).
redlancer said:
My mate has one and from the brief ride in it, loved it. Felt light, can imagine it will be great fun and rewarding on a track and twisty roads
Was a lot quicker, or felt a lot quicker than i was expecting.
We've both driven very high performance cars so have a benchmark and me personally I love light weight cars and relying on skill or lack of it and then the learning on a track to get the most of a car.
Problem for me is the space in the back. You couldn't get anyone in there bar babies. No leg room.
So for me with kids, it would be a weekend car. I have an £10k Elise for that. So this would be an Elise replacement for me. If it had the space I would of considered getting rid of the Elise and my wifes Mini for this. But the mini has more passenger room.
So if I was after a 2 seater hardtop weekend car in the £20k region, Exige or Cayman would be my choice.
Again think they dropped doing a convertible, this would of opened up a whole new market for them IMO.
Even people without families would have to take in the lack off passenger space if it was the main car.
Another mistake by Toyota, which my mate made the point, is why isn't this car/shape being used for their WRC program.
If you have this car flying around the Welsh forests, German tarmac, snowy Monte, you'd have the one car in the WRC "affordable" to people and throw in the Subaru history this would/should help increase the brand awareness.
I drove one ( despite the local dealer being quite difficult to deal with initially )Was a lot quicker, or felt a lot quicker than i was expecting.
We've both driven very high performance cars so have a benchmark and me personally I love light weight cars and relying on skill or lack of it and then the learning on a track to get the most of a car.
Problem for me is the space in the back. You couldn't get anyone in there bar babies. No leg room.
So for me with kids, it would be a weekend car. I have an £10k Elise for that. So this would be an Elise replacement for me. If it had the space I would of considered getting rid of the Elise and my wifes Mini for this. But the mini has more passenger room.
So if I was after a 2 seater hardtop weekend car in the £20k region, Exige or Cayman would be my choice.
Again think they dropped doing a convertible, this would of opened up a whole new market for them IMO.
Even people without families would have to take in the lack off passenger space if it was the main car.
Another mistake by Toyota, which my mate made the point, is why isn't this car/shape being used for their WRC program.
If you have this car flying around the Welsh forests, German tarmac, snowy Monte, you'd have the one car in the WRC "affordable" to people and throw in the Subaru history this would/should help increase the brand awareness.
The rear legroom was the sticking point for me as it would have been a car to go on European driving hols in. It did seem pretty cramped in the back with adults in the front. As Redlancer said it would have been ok for adult and 2 medium kids ( front seat a bit more forward )
I really want one of these (sadly un likely to get one for a few years until they are cheap and I can justify one as a 3rd car to replace the mr2). But if I was in the market for buying a new car it would certainly be top of my list. I hope some of you buy them so I can get a cheap one in a few years.
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