RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
cptsideways said:
Yes very much so, a complete flop compared to the numbers they were hoping for. Speak to any Toyota dealer off the record & they will agree.
US & Canada Sales are double (almost triple) of the MX-5
Scion FRS
2012 11,417 1470
2013 18,327 1825
2014 14,062 1559
MX5 Miata
2012 6305 711
2013 5780 554
2014 4745 511
Cant find UK sales figures at hand anyone know of a source?
These are the Toyota figures ( bear in mind the 2015 ones are not a complete year )US & Canada Sales are double (almost triple) of the MX-5
Scion FRS
2012 11,417 1470
2013 18,327 1825
2014 14,062 1559
MX5 Miata
2012 6305 711
2013 5780 554
2014 4745 511
Cant find UK sales figures at hand anyone know of a source?
GT86 figures are towards bottom of page
These cars certainly generate debate.
What car can you get for £20 odd grand with a five year warranty that delivers the drive of a gt86? None that's what. It will cost you tyres and even then they are about 5 quid each.
Modern, apparently good handling cars are just too competent to be fun unless you're going totally banzai mental. My clio 200 lasted less than a year because it needed a racetrack to come alive. I don't drive to work via a racetrack so bought a 86.
What car can you get for £20 odd grand with a five year warranty that delivers the drive of a gt86? None that's what. It will cost you tyres and even then they are about 5 quid each.
Modern, apparently good handling cars are just too competent to be fun unless you're going totally banzai mental. My clio 200 lasted less than a year because it needed a racetrack to come alive. I don't drive to work via a racetrack so bought a 86.
SaqibCTR said:
Are Toyota really that bothered they aren't selling in the UK? Are they doing well with the GT86 in markets such as US and Japan?
The question should really be why they have sold well in the US but poorly in the UK. The answer is simply the car was overpriced in the UK market. In the US it was very cheap indeed and every bit as cheap as the MX5. In the UK when launched it was £25k + options with many spending £27-28k.On the subject of driving, it's been said many times in Evo that although it's a decent enough, it's got odd contrived handling, s
tty tyres that don't give much adjustability and a wheezy lump of an engine. For comparison they loved the handling of the Golf R, much moreso than the GT86, and even placed the Golf high in ECOTY. Alex said:
Most people, and judging by the posts in this thread most PH'ers too, simply do not get this car.
It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
I think most people probably "get it", but if their priorities are everything you mention above, they'd probably stump up a bit more cash and go for an Elise. While others would go for the Boxster, or perhaps the hot hatchbacks instead. For some it'll be too much of a compromise, while for others it's not enough.It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
framerateuk said:
I think most people probably "get it", but if their priorities are everything you mention above, they'd probably stump up a bit more cash and go for an Elise. While others would go for the Boxster, or perhaps the hot hatchbacks instead. For some it'll be too much of a compromise, while for others it's not enough.
+1I do "get" it. It just doesn't deliver it's premise well enough. In my opinion of course and based on a 20minute test drive.
I'm delighted with my BRZ having done >30k miles in the last 18 months, it's a great balanced drive that requires involvement whilst being practical enough to cram the kids in occasionally and a bit of overnight luggage. Running costs are excellent, averaging 38mpg with cheapish servicing (camchain) and latest insurance at £280pa. Only time will tell on the depreciation hit, but for a daily drive for me it's brilliant value for money.
Just because it has a Subaru bloodline has led to be ridiculed by the loyal legacy Subaru turbo buyer of old, who'll hate the lack of turbo torque and instant power that they are used to.
It's totally different car, built for a different market in a different era and should be considered as such. If the Subaru connection didn't exist and it was purely sold as a Toyota, it wouldn't be compared to Subaru turbo performance but viewed as the new Celica in a much more tempered and appreciative light. As a daily drive doing decent miles it really works for me as a sensible and enjoyable drive, but it's not special enough to be weekend plaything.
Just because it has a Subaru bloodline has led to be ridiculed by the loyal legacy Subaru turbo buyer of old, who'll hate the lack of turbo torque and instant power that they are used to.
It's totally different car, built for a different market in a different era and should be considered as such. If the Subaru connection didn't exist and it was purely sold as a Toyota, it wouldn't be compared to Subaru turbo performance but viewed as the new Celica in a much more tempered and appreciative light. As a daily drive doing decent miles it really works for me as a sensible and enjoyable drive, but it's not special enough to be weekend plaything.
I really wish they'd offer the RC version as they do in Japan and NZ - http://www.86rc.co.nz/
The fussy wheels and garish leather interiors of the UK cars don't do much for me. The NZ market RC 16" alloys are much nicer, and I'd happily take basic black velour over the usual nasty jap leather. Not keen on the unpainted bumpers but you can get those in body colour for $599. You can add TRD exhaust, suspension, an LSD, etc as factory options.
In white, with painted bumpers - $34585 NZ on the road, taxed, full tank of fuel. At current exchange rates, that's comfortably under £17k, which is a viable price to tempt Fiesta ST / Renaultsport Clio buyers. Leaves a bit of change to fit a stereo, or raid the options list for TRD bits.
The fussy wheels and garish leather interiors of the UK cars don't do much for me. The NZ market RC 16" alloys are much nicer, and I'd happily take basic black velour over the usual nasty jap leather. Not keen on the unpainted bumpers but you can get those in body colour for $599. You can add TRD exhaust, suspension, an LSD, etc as factory options.
In white, with painted bumpers - $34585 NZ on the road, taxed, full tank of fuel. At current exchange rates, that's comfortably under £17k, which is a viable price to tempt Fiesta ST / Renaultsport Clio buyers. Leaves a bit of change to fit a stereo, or raid the options list for TRD bits.
OwenK said:
Who knows the situation with manufacturer warranty on these? I love the idea of one but I just don't like it all that much in standard form. Yet the aftermarket can offer many many things that make it into the car I want to buy. Obviously Toyota aren't going to pay for an engine rebuild if they discover I'm running a supercharger, but is there any scope to do anything to the car at all without inmediately losing your manufacturer protection?
Stupid question perhaps...
phantom supercharger. I have one on my 5.Stupid question perhaps...
Laughable concept at first then quickly realise its the future
chrispmartha said:
£8100 for the golf V £12000 for the GT86 - you'd be bonkers to lease the toyota
Not trying to single you out here....but I can't get my head around this concept. Surely someone who wants a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe will pay the premium over the golf because well, the golf is pretty far away from being a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe?!
I can't deny that it IS an expensive car to lease but where is the competition? Where are all the 22k rear wheel drive coupes?
Toyotas 'problem' is that the market in the UK just doesn't want this kind of car. Shame.
Not economical or practical enough for daily driver. Quicker cars or convertibles better as second cars. Wrong badge.
Interior is horrible. I sat in one and whilst it felt good ergonomiclly, it looked 10 years out of date. What are those nut design dials about??!!
Does the (5yr iirc) warranty not help because it discourages modding?
Interior is horrible. I sat in one and whilst it felt good ergonomiclly, it looked 10 years out of date. What are those nut design dials about??!!
Does the (5yr iirc) warranty not help because it discourages modding?
LordGrover said:
Odd. I'm on my 3rd or 4th set of tyres and second set of pads - no track days. 
I have used winters for about 3 or 4 months each year though if that counts. Looking at the Michelins in the garage, they're getting a bit down, so might have to get a set come the summer.(service last June said pads were only worn 20% - someone in the drivers club has had 40k out of theirs!)
and whats the point of a track day if you don't go for it! 10 minute laps of the Nurbrugring take their toll too!
Alex said:
Most people, and judging by the posts in this thread most PH'ers too, simply do not get this car.
It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
Thanks for talking some sense!It does exactly what it was designed to do. It is a proper sports car for experienced, serious driving enthusiasts. Enthusiasts who appreciate steering feel, chassis balance and throttle response above straight-line performance and interior toys.
That rules out 99.9% of the population, which is why it hasn't sold well.
tomat0 said:
Not trying to single you out here....but I can't get my head around this concept.
Surely someone who wants a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe will pay the premium over the golf because well, the golf is pretty far away from being a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe?!
I can't deny that it IS an expensive car to lease but where is the competition? Where are all the 22k rear wheel drive coupes?
Toyotas 'problem' is that the market in the UK just doesn't want this kind of car. Shame.
I dont understand why you can't get the concept, someone may 'want' a 2+2 coupe but when you can get a faster more expensive, 2+3 car with a nicer interior for £4,000 less over 2 years, head probably overrules heart especially when the 2+2 car isn't all that desirable.Surely someone who wants a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe will pay the premium over the golf because well, the golf is pretty far away from being a (2+2) rear wheel drive coupe?!
I can't deny that it IS an expensive car to lease but where is the competition? Where are all the 22k rear wheel drive coupes?
Toyotas 'problem' is that the market in the UK just doesn't want this kind of car. Shame.
Again I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm trying to say why IMO the car isn't selling
i suspect the depreciation of these will settle once they hit 10-12k. As a new car/lease proposition they have clearly failed in the UK, so supply is limited and enthusiast demand will come forward at a lower price.
I'm lucky enough to have a fleet of cars and no need for a commuter car. I don't identify my ego in any one car, and i'm sure i look faintly ridiculous in a GT86 anyway! The reason i still love my GT86 is that it's a great driver's car. Simple.
It has a very raw drivetrain that doesn't flatter poor driver control; it is rewarding to drive properly and doesn't give a fast drive easily. That, sadly, is where most manufacturers, even Porsche, have lost the plot for me as they seek to produce appliances. i am a happy dinosaur.
I'm lucky enough to have a fleet of cars and no need for a commuter car. I don't identify my ego in any one car, and i'm sure i look faintly ridiculous in a GT86 anyway! The reason i still love my GT86 is that it's a great driver's car. Simple.
It has a very raw drivetrain that doesn't flatter poor driver control; it is rewarding to drive properly and doesn't give a fast drive easily. That, sadly, is where most manufacturers, even Porsche, have lost the plot for me as they seek to produce appliances. i am a happy dinosaur.
I think the reality here is that whilst enthusiasts talk about wanting light RWD 'fun' cars - they don't BUY them.
And they needed us to buy them because the coupe market isn't - and never has been - about enthusiast drivers. It's about people having mid-life crisis', recent divorcees and outright posers - and I just don't think that car would appeal to those people in the way that Celicas and Calibras and other cars have in the past.
There's a lesson to be learned - never give people what they say they want, always give them what you know they'll buy.
And they needed us to buy them because the coupe market isn't - and never has been - about enthusiast drivers. It's about people having mid-life crisis', recent divorcees and outright posers - and I just don't think that car would appeal to those people in the way that Celicas and Calibras and other cars have in the past.
There's a lesson to be learned - never give people what they say they want, always give them what you know they'll buy.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff