RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles

[GTEYE]

LordGrover said:

Neil G60 said:

It's just too slow and doesn't sound any good when you extend it. A cooking Golf diesel in gear would show it a clean pair of heels. It's not like the Japanese can't make a decent mid range turbocharged RWD coupe - the NIssan S13 and S14 shows that. It doesn't need mega power, a LPT with 250bhp and a slug more torque would flatter the chassis and make it a far better car. Light boost pressure means decent response.

bks.
You get your Golf diesel and meet me up on the moors - 30 mile run.
We'll see who shows who a clean pair of heels.

Perhaps you are a driving god, but for the average British driver, the Golf would be pretty close.

[RobM77]

Neil G60 said:

It's just too slow and doesn't sound any good when you extend it. A cooking Golf diesel in gear would show it a clean pair of heels. It's not like the Japanese can't make a decent mid range turbocharged RWD coupe - the NIssan S13 and S14 shows that. It doesn't need mega power, a LPT with 250bhp and a slug more torque would flatter the chassis and make it a far better car. Light boost pressure means decent response.

It depends on your tastes. I'd rather own a GT86 than anything FWD or 4WD. Once you give a GT86 250-300bhp it'd probably have to have larger wheels and tyres and brakes to suit, stiffer suspension for the greater cornering that would give and before long you've got a BMW 430i, which whilst not a bad car, probably does that job better. I do enjoy grip and power of course, but they're a fair way down my list of priorities for a road car; fairground rides are much cheaper if it's just speed and cornering grip you're after. I do own a high performance car, but because it only comes alive at license losing speeds it's just for the track; on the road I stick with the formula of FE/RWD and modest grip.

On a seperate note, I very much doubt that a diesel Golf could outrun a well balanced 200bhp coupé. It probably feels quicker subjectively, but from A to B on a twisty road I'm sure the GT86 would just dissapear into the distance wouldn't it?

[GTEYE]

RobM77 said:

Neil G60 said:

It's just too slow and doesn't sound any good when you extend it. A cooking Golf diesel in gear would show it a clean pair of heels. It's not like the Japanese can't make a decent mid range turbocharged RWD coupe - the NIssan S13 and S14 shows that. It doesn't need mega power, a LPT with 250bhp and a slug more torque would flatter the chassis and make it a far better car. Light boost pressure means decent response.

It depends on your tastes. I'd rather own a GT86 than anything FWD or 4WD. Once you give a GT86 250-300bhp it'd probably have to have larger wheels and tyres and brakes to suit, stiffer suspension for the greater cornering that would give and before long you've got a BMW 430i, which whilst not a bad car, probably does that job better. I do enjoy grip and power of course, but they're a fair way down my list of priorities for a road car; fairground rides are much cheaper if it's just speed and cornering grip you're after. I do own a high performance car, but because it only comes alive at license losing speeds it's just for the track; on the road I stick with the formula of FE/RWD and modest grip.

On a seperate note, I very much doubt that a diesel Golf could outrun a well balanced 200bhp coupé. It probably feels quicker subjectively, but from A to B on a twisty road I'm sure the GT86 would just dissapear into the distance wouldn't it?

But don't the so called experts suggest that whilst the GT86 is fun (in the right conditions), it isn't actually that fast?

[LordGrover]

I don't think it matters much one way or the other who'd win. My post was a little tongue in cheek, it'd probably be close but again, so what? I have great fun in a GT86, maybe the Golfist would feel the same.
Certain I wouldn't be happy in the Golf diesel though.

[Johnnytheboy]

hora said:

Depends- the average bloke will sometimes risk everything to get past/put a bit distance between another driver whereas most (me included) would lift off at a certain point..

I'm glad it's not just me. Nothing makes me drive slower than someone else racing me.

I caught a guy in a Golf R32 up the other week and he started driving like an utter tool to try and get away from me. He succeeded!

[RobM77]

GTEYE said:

RobM77 said:

Neil G60 said:

It's just too slow and doesn't sound any good when you extend it. A cooking Golf diesel in gear would show it a clean pair of heels. It's not like the Japanese can't make a decent mid range turbocharged RWD coupe - the NIssan S13 and S14 shows that. It doesn't need mega power, a LPT with 250bhp and a slug more torque would flatter the chassis and make it a far better car. Light boost pressure means decent response.

It depends on your tastes. I'd rather own a GT86 than anything FWD or 4WD. Once you give a GT86 250-300bhp it'd probably have to have larger wheels and tyres and brakes to suit, stiffer suspension for the greater cornering that would give and before long you've got a BMW 430i, which whilst not a bad car, probably does that job better. I do enjoy grip and power of course, but they're a fair way down my list of priorities for a road car; fairground rides are much cheaper if it's just speed and cornering grip you're after. I do own a high performance car, but because it only comes alive at license losing speeds it's just for the track; on the road I stick with the formula of FE/RWD and modest grip.

On a seperate note, I very much doubt that a diesel Golf could outrun a well balanced 200bhp coupé. It probably feels quicker subjectively, but from A to B on a twisty road I'm sure the GT86 would just dissapear into the distance wouldn't it?

But don't the so called experts suggest that whilst the GT86 is fun (in the right conditions), it isn't actually that fast?

Oh yes, definitely, and performance isn't really the point of the car (as you can see by my statement I'd rather own one than an RS4 or similar), but surely a diesel Golf is slower still from A to B. Check out these lap times:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autocar_dry_handling...

The GT86 is 73rd with a 1min20.60 and there isn't a single diesel VAG product in front of it, in fact the Audi 3.0 TDi Quattro (which is surely about as fast as diesel VAG gets?) is just behind it, with the Golf mk VI 2.0 Tdi five seconds slower, which isn't too far off the gap between the GT86 and an LP640...

[chrispmartha]

RobM77 said:

Oh yes, definitely, and performance isn't really the point of the car (as you can see by my statement I'd rather own one than an RS4 or similar), but surely a diesel Golf is slower still from A to B. Check out these lap times:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autocar_dry_handling...

The GT86 is 73rd with a 1min20.60 and there isn't a single diesel VAG product in front of it, in fact the Audi 3.0 TDi Quattro (which is surely about as fast as diesel VAG gets?) is just behind it, with the Golf mk VI 2.0 Tdi five seconds slower, which isn't too far off the gap between the GT86 and an LP640...

I was quite surprised how quick the M135i is on that list, I thought the A45 AMG would have beaten it.

Diesel 1 Series same as GT86 as well

[Dunk130TC]

The BRZ / GT86 is a back to basics retro choice, it allows you to drive a modern reliable, economical car with all the loveable qualities of your first car, but if you were brought up in a turbo digital age you won't understand it. For those of us who started out with 135 tyres, planning overtaking moves half a mile ahead and having more power than grip even through you only had 70bhp, you'll get it.

[RobM77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[RobM77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

[cptsideways]

14k ish buys you one at BCA this past week, they might all have avons on the back which might be a clue to their history

[Neil G60]

LOL SO much venom, probably not the best comparison, the whole DERV Golf thing though!

Assuming it's your only car something like a Focus ST, RenaultSport Megane etc offers more performance, just as much dynamism, a classier interior and a heap more practicality. THe GT86 is just a car I struggle to love. For me it should massively over index on its engine to make up for other areas and it just doesn't. It feels like a missed opportunity - imagine that chassis with a HOnda F20C engine - you'd still have to extend it but it'd be so much more rewarding to do so, I guess emissions regs put pay to that type of engine given the new CTR has now gone FI.

The GT86 looks stunning, for me that makes the lack of grunt even more frustrating.

Edited by Neil G60 on Friday 27th February 15:09

[RobM77]

Neil G60 said:

LOL SO much venom, probably not the best comparison, the whole DERV Golf thing though!

Assuming it's your only car something like a Focus ST, RenaultSport Megane etc offers more performance, just as much dynamism, a classier interior and a heap more practicality. THe GT86 is just a car I struggle to love. For me it should massively over index on its engine to make up for other areas and it just doesn't. It feels like a missed opportunity - imagine that chassis with a HOnda F20C engine - you'd still have to extend it but it'd be so much more rewarding to do so, I guess emissions regs put pay to that type of engine given the new CTR has now gone FI.

My money would go on a Megane as it does more things more of the time.

The GT86 looks stunning, for me that makes the lack of grunt even more frustrating.

Provided you're ok with front wheel drive that is? Surely the whole point of the GT86 is that it's a balanced FE/RWD chassis?

[kambites]

I think that's the whole point though, the GT86 isn't aimed at people who want a fast car. I'd take the GT86 over anything FWD and almost anything turbocharged.

Admittedly that doesn't help Toyota much because there are other cars I'd take over the GT86.

[Neil G60]

That's true. There's always going to be that nagging thing about wishing it just went a bit faster though.

[Fittster]

Neil G60 said:

That's true. There's always going to be that nagging thing about wishing it just went a bit faster though.

It's going top be easier to make a GT86 faster than it is to make a hot hatch RWD.

[KTF]

cptsideways said:

14k ish buys you one at BCA this past week, they might all have avons on the back which might be a clue to their history

Do tell.

[andburg]

back to the autocar test track..this one is more comprehensive

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung_test_tra...

185. Opel Astra OPC 1:46.60 '05 241 / 1318
189. Ford Focus ST 1:46.70 '08 226 / 1424
200. VW Scirocco 1.4 TSI 1:47.10 '08 160 / 1271
201. Mazda RX-8 1:47.20 '02 231 / 1400
204. Audi A1 Sporback 2.0 TDI 1:47.20 '12 143 / 1195
225. Mini Cooper S 1:48.00 '10 184 / 1196
254. Citroen DS3 THP 150 1:49.00 '11 156 / 1165
276. VW Polo GTI 1.4 TSI 1:49.70 '10 179 / 1194
282. Toyota GT-86 1:49.90 '12 200 / 1180
306. Alfa Romeo Mito 1.4 Multiair 135 1:50.50 '09 135 / 1135
332. Mini Cooper D 1:51.30 '10 111 / 1015
343. Mazda MX-5 2.0 MZR 1:51.70 '05 160 / 1150

Looks where you'd expect it to be when you look at sports cars, midpoint between 160bhp MX5 and a 230bhp RX8, its just the market for a 2+2 at 20k isn't actually there!

A1 2.0 TDI sportback is faster? seriously?

[Neil G60]

And I hope they do. The LItchfield Spec S conversion is stunning.

[braddo]

Neil G60 said:

That's true. There's always going to be that nagging thing about wishing it just went a bit faster though.

But it's a piece of cake to make it faster!!!

And the whole ethos of the car was to be a base for modification if the owner wanted to (whether that be for speed or style).

Whether you like it or not, NO other manufacturer will EVER offer a comparable (or quicker) RWD coupe in the UK for less money than the GT86/BRZ twins. You are absolutely wrong if you think that stuff like the Honda S2000 was cheaper in real terms than the GT86.

It might be a different story in the US where you can get basic Mustangs dirt cheap.