RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles

RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles

Author
Discussion

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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liner33 said:
Half as much fuel ! Rubbish , maybe 10mpg more , my 370 is averaging 28mpg , so about 25% more fuel for about twice the power , seems more than fair to me
I didn't say you had to prefer the GT86, I said I did. smile

Obviously twice as much was an exaggeration but the 350Z I drove, I averaged about 23mpg. The GT86, about 33 with very similar driving. What mpg did you get out of the GT86 when you drove it? You obviously drive fairly gently if you average 28 out of the Nissan. smile


Edited by kambites on Saturday 28th February 13:54

Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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Firstly I'd like to commend the PH community for a great thread and seeing lots of posts.

I see a basic problem here and that is the GT86 has a few downsides which Subaru / Toyota have failed to fix since it came out at a slightly optimistic price in the UK.

Over years the Nissan GTR has been fettled, year on year. Of course they have never really fettled the one thing they really needed to do, which was downsize it from it'd fat arse and lose 150kg.

The GT86/ BRZ got the basics right from the start. A lot lighter, low slung engine. But since then they have failed to improve the car year on year like the Nissan guys try with the GT-R. And it must be easier to sort out the power, engine grip upwards rather than Nissan working the GT-R downwards on a diet?

After market do a good job

http://www.fensport.co.uk/FensportCars/GT86_Race.a...

Why has Toyota and Subaru not polished this car up?


liner33

10,642 posts

201 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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kambites said:
I didn't say you had to prefer the GT86, I said I did. smile

Obviously twice as much was an exaggeration but the 350Z I drove, I averaged about 23mpg. The GT86, about 33 with very similar driving. What mpg did you get out of the GT86 when you drove it? You obviously drive fairly gently if you average 28 out of the Nissan. smile


Edited by kambites on Saturday 28th February 13:54
I didnt mention anything about prefer just correcting your statement but the difference between 23 top 33 isnt twice , lets be real here, power comes at a price.

Someone else reckoned they had averaged 38mpg out of their 86, I currently am averaging about 28 out of my 370, of course wet and cold roads do mean I am a little more careful with the throttle than normal but when you have a lot of torque you dont need to thrash it anyhow

I only took the 86 for a test drive, never owned one , bought the 370z instead

I like them , I "get" them I understand what they are about but I'm not delusional about them, the zed is better equipped, built, handles better, stops better and is quicker but maybe its not as much fun at legal speeds

A mate of mine has an Ignis Sport, I follow him down country lanes and the car is skating about on the bends and I'm sure he is having way more fun than I am but wouldnt want one of those either

b0rk

2,289 posts

145 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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McFarnsworth said:
Except it isn't in most of the EU. Toyota made a car designed to be modified, yet doing so in most countries stops it being road legal.
Well that statement doesn't really make sense when the two biggest markets in the EU for cars (and sports cars) have thriving car modifying communities. Admittedly one does require TUV approval of mods. The failure of the car to sell in the UK and Germany is a problem. The EU market is more defined by car modifying typically being done by the second for third owner once out of warranty which is sort of an issue when the new sales are not present to build a community.

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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liner33 said:
I like them , I "get" them I understand what they are about but I'm not delusional about them, the zed is better equipped, built, handles better, stops better and is quicker but maybe its not as much fun at legal speeds
Not sure how you have measured handling and stopping but Toyota must have done a pretty bad job making a car that is 25% lighter being worse in those two areas.

I really like the 370Z for what it is but having driven it on track, it really feels nose heavy and extremely slow to react / settle compared to the GT86. I guess all that weight and higher CoG were never going to help.

Things may feel different on the road though.

zeeboy

37 posts

109 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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Thanks for all the replies everyone, regarding my GT86 v 2009 350z question. I take them on board.

On reflection, maybe I should have suggested comparing 2 cars in the same price bracket - a new GT86 and a 2012 370z? Unless you need 2 extra seats I think you'd be hard pushed to make a solid case for the Toyota.

Suppose I should declare a bit of an interest at this point - I've had 2 x 350s since 2004 and now I've had a 370 for the last 4 years. Test drove a GT86 and to be honest I might as well have been in a Prius. If you're considering a GT86, test drive a 370z.

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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I think you would be really hard pushed to make a case for the 370Z but it entirely depends on your priorities too. It's OK not to care about feel, precision, lightness, brake modulation, ergonomics, low consumable wear, balance, driving position, visibility, simplicity, low cog, damping, changes of direction etc etc. Each to their own and the GT86 will never compete with the grunt of the huge 370Z but it handles the way it does precisely because it doesn't have a 3.7 V6, which also allows the 2+2 configuration.
If the GT86 felt like a Prius, then the 370Z is definitely the better car for you.

Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 28th February 18:06

zeeboy

37 posts

109 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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What a brilliant retort smile

It would have been the perfect put down if you hadn't needed to edit it.

I suppose, as you suggest, it's horses for courses. Give me the wild horses any day. I'll leave the ice dancing to Torville & Dean.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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That's sort of the point isn't it. The 350Z (and to a lesser extend the 370Z) drives like a muscle car not a sports car. Of course there's nothing wrong with muscle cars but not everyone likes them.

I'm a big fan of the 370Z (although I never liked the 350Z) but it's not really a comparable car, at least for me. I would never consider the GT86 if I didn't need the back seats.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 28th February 19:38

v8s4me

7,234 posts

218 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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Why aren't they selling? They (the Toyota anyway) are in one word..."harsh". Harsh ride, harsh seats, harsh induction noise, harsh engine & road noise. All the drawbacks of a sports car without the performance payoff. So, neither one thing nor the other. Under performs for a sports car and too uncomfortable for a long distance GT car. They do look good though; at least the designers go that bit right.

nickfrog

20,872 posts

216 months

Saturday 28th February 2015
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The ride and seats at least are quite supple, the rest I agree though. It's so beautifully damped for a road car, it's genuinely quite surprising. The bottom line is, a road car that can literally be driven hard on track out of the box is never going to appeal to many people because of the compromises made. I think Toyota and Subaru should be applauded for that but your average online "car enthusiast" is very difficult to please, even if they were never in the target market in the first place anyway, thank god.

OwenK

3,472 posts

194 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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It's got to be down to the lease prices. There's a good 4 or 5 guys in my office alone who really really wanted one of these but at 300+ per month it's up against some pretty serious machinery. Not in the same sector of course but for Average Joe the cornering performance is merely top of a list of "nice to have"s rather than a must-have.
If they could have played some tunes like the Germans and got the monthlies down I reckon they'd be all over the place.
Residuals seem to be pretty strong too so it doesn't look like they'd lose out.

Saying that, this thread has made me pretty much determined to get one as my next commuter car - I feel a bit bad for the new Fiesta ST I've just bought for the purpose that hasn't even arrived yet... Already old news...

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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OwenK said:
It's got to be down to the lease prices. There's a good 4 or 5 guys in my office alone who really really wanted one of these but at 300+ per month it's up against some pretty serious machinery. Not in the same sector of course but for Average Joe the cornering performance is merely top of a list of "nice to have"s rather than a must-have.
[b]If they could have played some tunes like the Germans and got the monthlies down I reckon they'd be all over the place.
Residuals seem to be pretty strong too so it doesn't look like they'd lose out. [/b]

...
Not really up on the vagaries of leasing and contract hire etc, but are they the reasons why the RX8 were comparatively more popular as in some ways it faced similar 'problems' ( i.e. not considered really quick, not a prestige badge despite some saying it was a great drive with an engine that liked to be revved hard ) and having to compete with the Merc/BMW/AUDI diesels for company car business

Just wondered if Mazda did very good deals for business users at the time on the RX8 or whether the little rear doors and suitability for kids in the back meant it did better with mainly private buyers?

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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I don't know the answer to the question but I think the RX8 was released at a time when it was much more common for people to buy cars rather than lease them.

herit86

4 posts

137 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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I had a 350Z GT from 2004 until 2010, then a 370Z GT from 2010 until 2012, and still have a GT86 I bought in 2012. All different with the 370Z being more refined but thought the gear change wasn't as smooth as the 350Z but the power and style better. Both Nissans felt heavy on cornering and was never comfortable pushing them on public roads.

I test drove the GT86 and never missed the power of the Z's but instantly connected to it and seemed right. The rear seats are fairly pointless but can get 3 people in on short journeys with the passenger seat forward. It is most useful for folding them down to give a decent load area and managed to get 4 spare wheels + tyres in. I've done a few mods on it and intend to keep long term and add forced induction at some point which will keep me happy as well as there not being many around still.

The 370Z remains the one with the best interior and sound but was also expensive to run - get 10mpg+ more in the GT86 and once got 43mpg on a long motorway journey driving steady.

Kozy

3,169 posts

217 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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As someone who finds a 120bhp MX5 plenty quick enough (and an absolute hoot to drive too) I really, really want a GT86.

The fact that I drive a Mk1 MX5 should be enough of an explanation as to why I haven't bought one though. In my mind, anyone buying new cars is either loaded or stupid.

Edited by Kozy on Sunday 1st March 09:17

VeeFource

1,076 posts

176 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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I took one for a long test drive and although it's a great and special feeling car, the high list price means it really has to hit the spot. But for me it fell down on the following:

- Too much road and especially wind noise
- Engine sounds dull, a real dissapointment for a boxer layout
- Lack of low down grunt (should have been a 2.5l)
- Stereo sound is tragic (there are no excuses for this in a £20k+ car!)
- Clutch is too focused for town driving
- Rear seats are pointless, better just to have a larger boot

Most of those points could have been addressed by less aggressive cost cutting which is a real shame. If I lived in Scotland I'd probably buy one, but how often do most of us get to drive on the sort of roads the GT86 really shines on? I suspect for most it's just too compromised unfortunately.

On the flip side I drove it back to back against a Fiesta ST which seemed very ordinary when not making progress and with a much harsher ride than the GT86.

Edited by VeeFource on Sunday 1st March 10:21

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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VeeFource said:
- Engine sounds dull, a real dissapointment for a boxer layout
A naturally aspirated boxer four should have an identical exhaust note to an inline four. It'd be cheaper and easier to package but you'd lose a lot of power fitting an Impreza-style unequal length header.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 1st March 10:21

VeeFource

1,076 posts

176 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
quotequote all
kambites said:
VeeFource said:
- Engine sounds dull, a real dissapointment for a boxer layout
A naturally aspirated boxer four should have an identical exhaust note to an inline four. It'd be cheaper and easier to package but you'd lose a lot of power fitting an Impreza-style unequal length header.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 1st March 10:21
I was more thinking about the induction/piped in sound. It sounds like they didn't even tune and filter it like they used to do on the Z4 etc. The last focus ST has a lovely warbly induction sound despite being an inline 4. Shouldn't cost that much to develop either.

It's understandable why they'd have to keep the headers equal even though it's a shame to not have the old Scooby exhaust sound

Edited by VeeFource on Sunday 1st March 10:29

sjg

7,444 posts

264 months

Sunday 1st March 2015
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Yep. Subaru boxers sound the way they do because of (very) unequal length exhaust manifold - one side has to go all the way across the engine bay to meet the other. You can get equal length ones (meant to be better performing), the sound goes away.

I did see somewhere that someone was planning to make an unequal length one for the GT86, purely for the sound.