RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
There seem to be some more interesting versions in Japan!
http://gazooracing.com/pages/autosalon2014/carlist...
http://clicccar.com/2015/02/13/293073/
http://gazooracing.com/pages/autosalon2014/carlist...
http://clicccar.com/2015/02/13/293073/
NJH said:
Thanks to this thread I really want to have a go in one of these now, I didn't before as the pricing was silly.
On the comparison to the mk3 MX5, it always amazes me how few people spotted that Mazda completely ballsed up the chassis development on that car. Out of the magazines it seemed that only Evo picked up on it, everyone else raved about it which just goes to show how few people ever actually pushed the car to its limits. We owned a 2.0 sport from new specced with the Mazdaspeed lowering springs and geo checked, as I have said many times on here it couldn't see which way our 968 went cross country due to its pretty useless suspension/wheels/tyre package, stacks of grip just no composure and poor dynamic balance on bumpy british roads made it blooming scary when it started to move around at speed. It always felt to me like they had got more than a couple of fundamental things badly wrong. The car would have been 100% better IMHE if it didn't have those issues. If the BRZ/GT86 fixes those issues it must be a great car and would/will undoubtably be very desirable in years to come when more people who care about these things drive them and post thousands of eulogies all over the internet to help drive up the prices.
There's a massive difference between the mk3 and mk3.5 MX-5, I hated the way the mk3 drove, but the mk3.5 was great. On the comparison to the mk3 MX5, it always amazes me how few people spotted that Mazda completely ballsed up the chassis development on that car. Out of the magazines it seemed that only Evo picked up on it, everyone else raved about it which just goes to show how few people ever actually pushed the car to its limits. We owned a 2.0 sport from new specced with the Mazdaspeed lowering springs and geo checked, as I have said many times on here it couldn't see which way our 968 went cross country due to its pretty useless suspension/wheels/tyre package, stacks of grip just no composure and poor dynamic balance on bumpy british roads made it blooming scary when it started to move around at speed. It always felt to me like they had got more than a couple of fundamental things badly wrong. The car would have been 100% better IMHE if it didn't have those issues. If the BRZ/GT86 fixes those issues it must be a great car and would/will undoubtably be very desirable in years to come when more people who care about these things drive them and post thousands of eulogies all over the internet to help drive up the prices.
If I still needed a car for commuting I would have bought a GT86 to replace my MX-5 when it went back to the lease company, but as I now walk to work I couldn't justfy £25k on a toy, so built a garage & bought my MR2 instead. If I change jobs and need to commute an GT86 will be high up my list.
Edited by Craikeybaby on Saturday 7th March 15:43
That guy who is well known in MX-5 circles measured them and found no difference in the suspension pickup points or axles (Wheels In Motion I believe?) as the claim was that the problem with the early cars was according to Mazda the roll centres. DId Mazda put the 3.5 on smaller wheels, fit stiffer springs and different Bilstein damper bump and rebound curves? I don't think they did any of that either. The car we had wasn't a bad car, it was incredible on the uber flat and smooth German roads just couldn't hack it on bumpy British back roads which is a real shame as a roadster with only 160 ish Bhp should shine on such roads. I would have one again but would replace the shocks and springs straight away with something aftermarket. Unfortunately my worst fears about Mazda and damping are not being alleviated by the Top Gear magazine review saying the new one shimmies over cats eyes, that sounds like a classic lack of sufficient damping to me just like the mk3 we had (assuming it can't surely suffer from skuttle shake).
I really, really want one of these, however I don't have the disposable funds for a new one.
The formula is genius, however I can see why the sales aren't flooding in.
I've not driven one, so the following is based on media impressions and reports from people with first hand experience that I've spoken to.
I think the car would have been an instant hit with the buyers if it had come with a 250bhp turbo charged and torque rich motor.
I'm a die hard advocate of normal aspiration, however can see why a thrashy and course engine is not what a buyer wants for this car. Be interested to know how the engine compares aurally and objectively to a Honda S2000 motor for comparison.
The styling also lets it down a bit, as do the style of rims chosen for the car (but not the size!!)
It's a shame there aren't more in the market place, driving used residuals down more swiftly ...... When they hit £5k I want to be at the front of the queue.
The formula is genius, however I can see why the sales aren't flooding in.
I've not driven one, so the following is based on media impressions and reports from people with first hand experience that I've spoken to.
I think the car would have been an instant hit with the buyers if it had come with a 250bhp turbo charged and torque rich motor.
I'm a die hard advocate of normal aspiration, however can see why a thrashy and course engine is not what a buyer wants for this car. Be interested to know how the engine compares aurally and objectively to a Honda S2000 motor for comparison.
The styling also lets it down a bit, as do the style of rims chosen for the car (but not the size!!)
It's a shame there aren't more in the market place, driving used residuals down more swiftly ...... When they hit £5k I want to be at the front of the queue.
Conscript said:
dtmpower said:
Conscript said:
LosEspada said:
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Because I don't want to drive a 9 year old Honda?They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Sound blasé, but that's pretty much it. I was in the market for a new car*. Why would I consider a car which went out of production in 2006 (according to a quick Wiki)?
Extrapolating your argument, you're basically asking why you'd bother buying any new car whilst there exists a second hand card market - and surely the answer to that is obvious?
- used approved.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 11:58
If you want new / reliable / warranty then you'd not think to buy a DC5 and thus not a GT86.
If I'd gone out and my only aim was to buy a car with certain power and torque figures and a preferred 0-60 time, then yeah, I might have ended up with a DC5.
But no one buys a car like that because there's obviously much more to considered, especially when the car is destined to be the only one you use and needs to fulfil several roles - so yes, I do consider warranty, newness of design and reliability. I don't see why considering those things some how makes you less of a driving enthusiast.
Add to that the fact that I just wanted a GT86. Thought it looked great, sounded great, drove great, put a smile on my face and I had the money to spend, so I bought it.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 12:10
Even the older JDM DC2 Integra is head and shoulders above the GT86Not everybody has 20 grand to throw at a new car, so i guess i was just putting it out there... I appreciate old classic cars that are of a great design and still do the job of modern cars coming out now.
You don't get much more reliable than a Honda, the VTEC engine sounds great and is very addictive, they are fun to drive and will put a huge smile on your face...
So that leaves warranty and new car smell which cost ya an extra 10 grand...
If its not broke... DON'T FIX IT!!
Alex said:
LosEspada said:
Conscript - You should have bought a Honda!!! Even the older JDM DC2 Integra is head and shoulders above the GT86
Have you owned both? I have. Even the older JDM DC2 Integra is head and shoulders above the GT86I would love to hear how the two cars compare from someone who has owned and driven both - Alex what do you think?
Alex said:
I'm glad you asked me that.
They are very similar in many ways. In a nutshell: DC2 has the better engine and sharper handling. The GT86 is a nicer place to be, is more fun and is RWD.
Every time i see a DC2 i feel a bit sad, it was such a great car to drive and wish i had never sold mine... It was very noisy due to the lack of sound proofing, quite harsh due to the stiff suspension set-up especially on rough roads at low speeds, but when you had an open road and you wound up the engine it felt like the engine could properly breath!! Great tight gearbox aswellThey are very similar in many ways. In a nutshell: DC2 has the better engine and sharper handling. The GT86 is a nicer place to be, is more fun and is RWD.
The one thing I think Toyota really failed in with the the GT86 was not adding the VVTLi system from the last gen Celica. That was for all intents and purposes VTEC, and I think having that and maybe another 20bhp would have made it the car everyone really wishes it was. It also opens up much more oppourtunity got NASP tuning too as you can add much more serious cams for screaming top end performance without sacrificing the day to say drive ability and economy. Given the bottom end geometry it should be possible to get about 270bhp NASP out of it but that is never going to be streetable with a fixed cam profile.
They missed a trick there.
They missed a trick there.
Kozy said:
The one thing I think Toyota really failed in with the the GT86 was not adding the VVTLi system from the last gen Celica. That was for all intents and purposes VTEC, and I think having that and maybe another 20bhp would have made it the car everyone really wishes it was. It also opens up much more oppourtunity got NASP tuning too as you can add much more serious cams for screaming top end performance without sacrificing the day to say drive ability and economy. Given the bottom end geometry it should be possible to get about 270bhp NASP out of it but that is never going to be streetable with a fixed cam profile.
They missed a trick there.
The GT86 engine does have VVT-i. They missed a trick there.
This car could have been perfect for me. I'm looking at buying a fun 2+2 for around £30k. I drove a BRZ when it came out but the engine is just so disappointing I couldn't bring myself to spend the money on it.
It's a funny market, the m135 is appealing at that price, the m235 starts at £35 but is £40k by the time you get a couple of options.
I want RWD so no hot hatches... There's nothing on the market (new) that suits so I'm now looking at approved-used v8 m3's, 997's and even an Evora.
If the GT86 or BRZ had a nicer, more characterful and yes, more powerful engine, I'd have one. Say they made a s/c one with 280bhp for £30k - I bet it would sell.
It's a funny market, the m135 is appealing at that price, the m235 starts at £35 but is £40k by the time you get a couple of options.
I want RWD so no hot hatches... There's nothing on the market (new) that suits so I'm now looking at approved-used v8 m3's, 997's and even an Evora.
If the GT86 or BRZ had a nicer, more characterful and yes, more powerful engine, I'd have one. Say they made a s/c one with 280bhp for £30k - I bet it would sell.
Edited by Lefty on Tuesday 17th March 10:39
Lefty said:
This car could have been perfect for me. I'm looking at buying a fun 2+2 for around £30k. I drove a BRZ when it came out but the engine is just so disappointing I couldn't bring myself to spend the money on it.
It's not the best I agree. However..Nothing new at the same price can touch the 86/BRZ if you want a rwd coupe. In fact is has no direct competition at it's price point.
Personally I don't care about the older stuff. Yes a M3/Cayman might be quicker in a straight line and have a better engine but I will bet my bottom dollar you will have more fun on the public roads in a 86/BRZ.
Plus all it will cost is tyres and servicing.
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