RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
Lefty said:
And is much, much faster.
Agree.Lefty said:
Plus it sounds much better
Subjective. Like the sound of mine. One of the best 4cylinder engines I've heard, although I freely I admit this isn't saying much; I haven't heard many and 4 cylinder engines are hardly aural nirvana anyway. Haven't heard a 135i to compare.
Lefty said:
And is more practical.
Can't argue.Lefty said:
And more economical.
Nope.Quick Google suggest M135i owners averaging mid to late twenties for MPG.
I'm averaging 34MPG in the Toyota, and have read others averaging closer to 37/38MPG.
Lefty said:
And nicer inside
Better quality interior, yup, can't argue with that.Lefty said:
And better made.
Clarify? Are you referring to reliability?Because I think it's generally well accepted that whilst BMWs might feel better put together, this doesn't always translate to a stunning reliability record.
Conversely, most Japanese cars feel like they are made from wet cardboard and old egg cartons, yet are generally well screwed together and reliable.
Lefty said:
With better dealers.
Couldn't comment, I've only been back to the dealer once, but the service was very good.Also, factor in personal choice. Whilst I'm sure the M135i has many technical advantages, I just wasn't really interested in one. Call me shallow, but it has looks only a mother could love, and it's a hatchback - a faster, more powerful hatchback with nicer feeling door cards yes, but I wanted to own a nice, sleek, fun to drive coupé, even if it is slower and is made from old crisp packets.
No offence meant, not trying to p
s off 135 owners, I know your car is fantastic - just not for me thanks. To each, his own 
Edited by Conscript on Friday 3rd April 19:05
Conscript said:
Couldn't comment, I've only been back to the dealer once, but the service was very good.
Also, factor in personal choice. Whilst I'm sure the M135i has many technical advantages, I just wasn't really interested in one. Call me shallow, but it has looks only a mother could love, and it's a hatchback - a faster, more powerful hatchback with nicer feeling door cards yes, but I wanted to own a nice, sleek, fun to drive coupé, even if it is slower and is made from old crisp packets.
No offence meant, not trying to ps off 135 owners, I know your car is fantastic - just not for me thanks. To each, his own
I wouldn't say that 100-series interior is better place to be than 86's. Driving position is family car like and overall quite boring place to be, same as ours 300-series too. 86's interior is very spartan and sporty, but in a good way. It is a well built car i think.Also, factor in personal choice. Whilst I'm sure the M135i has many technical advantages, I just wasn't really interested in one. Call me shallow, but it has looks only a mother could love, and it's a hatchback - a faster, more powerful hatchback with nicer feeling door cards yes, but I wanted to own a nice, sleek, fun to drive coupé, even if it is slower and is made from old crisp packets.
No offence meant, not trying to p
s off 135 owners, I know your car is fantastic - just not for me thanks. To each, his own Edited by Conscript on Friday 3rd April 19:05
And thinking that 135i is more economical than 86 is an false belief.
Lefty said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
For a car that is now so cheap and yet with such good residuals why are they so expensive to lease?
Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
And is much, much faster. Plus it sounds much better. And is more practical. And more economical. And nicer inside. And better made. With better dealers.Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
This iS why they didn't sell. People with £25k cash and wanting a £25k car buy 2nd hand. I imagine 90%+ new cars are bought on finance of some sort.
Now at £245 a month I have a feeling the GT86 would turn out to be the sales success Toyota were hoping for.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Lefty said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
For a car that is now so cheap and yet with such good residuals why are they so expensive to lease?
Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
And is much, much faster. Plus it sounds much better. And is more practical. And more economical. And nicer inside. And better made. With better dealers.Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
This iS why they didn't sell. People with £25k cash and wanting a £25k car buy 2nd hand. I imagine 90%+ new cars are bought on finance of some sort.
Now at £245 a month I have a feeling the GT86 would turn out to be the sales success Toyota were hoping for.
Lefty said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Lefty said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
For a car that is now so cheap and yet with such good residuals why are they so expensive to lease?
Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
And is much, much faster. Plus it sounds much better. And is more practical. And more economical. And nicer inside. And better made. With better dealers.Bearing in mind most drivers of new cars lease rather than buy many would-be buyers of the GT-86 may find the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
This iS why they didn't sell. People with £25k cash and wanting a £25k car buy 2nd hand. I imagine 90%+ new cars are bought on finance of some sort.
Now at £245 a month I have a feeling the GT86 would turn out to be the sales success Toyota were hoping for.
............Or would I? New MX5 will be around at the same price soon: small, light, pointy, fun orientated rear drive chassis, pretty and if you like your bald-head tanned the roof comes off. Then there's the absolute hoot (and more practical) of a Fiesta ST accessible at £190 a month. I could see me popping up on forums expressing the highest praise of the GT86 (and rightly so, it is a brilliant car in many ways) and still choose an alternative
Robert Elise said:
The 135i is heavily discounted to lease companies, but not for cash buyers.
Or those who lease or contract hire from BMW dealers. I pass a BMW dealership on my way to work. Individual cars sit outside with "Take me home for £XXX a month" stickers all over but no mention of a purchase price. While that 135i at £200 a month deal was on last year with the lease companies the poor BMW outlets were trying to punt them at three hundred and severalty odds. Gompo said:
Cheers.
I'm tall, so space needed for me. I don't necessarily need rear seat space, but it hopefully means that there's more leg room than a normal two seater. Loved the DC2 seats, just made it feel a bit special inside, moreso than a Civic VTi or something anyway.
Had a lightened flywheel in my DC2, not driven a standard one, but it seemed to add to the effect of the VTEC, but thought the B18 pulled fairly well from around 3.5-4k which was good enough for me.
Back more on subject, you can pick up either BRZ or GT86 for £15K these days, will we see them down at £10K sometime next year? Despite the two seats, and I expect less agility and fun; I'd still have to look at a 370z.
A 370Z might cost the same to buy used, but just the difference of tax, insurance and fuel (8kpa) equates to an extra £80 per monthI'm tall, so space needed for me. I don't necessarily need rear seat space, but it hopefully means that there's more leg room than a normal two seater. Loved the DC2 seats, just made it feel a bit special inside, moreso than a Civic VTi or something anyway.
Had a lightened flywheel in my DC2, not driven a standard one, but it seemed to add to the effect of the VTEC, but thought the B18 pulled fairly well from around 3.5-4k which was good enough for me.
Back more on subject, you can pick up either BRZ or GT86 for £15K these days, will we see them down at £10K sometime next year? Despite the two seats, and I expect less agility and fun; I'd still have to look at a 370z.
Lefty said:
And is much, much faster. Plus it sounds much better. And is more practical. And more economical. And nicer inside. And better made. With better dealers.
This iS why they didn't sell. People with £25k cash and wanting a £25k car buy 2nd hand. I imagine 90%+ new cars are bought on finance of some sort.
Plus less fun. That is all that matters to me, but you have point.This iS why they didn't sell. People with £25k cash and wanting a £25k car buy 2nd hand. I imagine 90%+ new cars are bought on finance of some sort.
Tannedbaldhead said:
the £10k more expensive 135 is a £100 a month cheaper way of accessing sideways fun.
And speaking of this, nobody's really mentioned power-slides yet (unless I missed it).I have an M135i currently and to do a power slide, you have to do the following:
Press and hold the DSC button for 5 seconds to turn it off.
Turn the car in aggressively, generally off the throttle, then punch the throttle very early in 2nd gear, wait for the boost to build and most often it will give you a drift. Although, it really wants to regain grip and so it's very snappy with it. The CoG feels high and the body rolls a lot so any transitional drifts are very snappy. It's also far more difficult to control on the throttle than an NA LSD equipped car such as an E46 or E92 M3.
That said, on a few rare corners it does have the power to just plant the throttle and once the revs and boost builds it will power-slide out.
In the wet, it's much more fun, but things like pulling out of T-junctions really highlight the open (electronically braked) diff. It will spin up the inside wheel. Also, boost does build rapidly so you can give it lots of throttle and nothing happens initially, but 1/4 second later, boost will be present and suddenly spin up the wheels, requiring extremely briskly applied opposite lock.
So how do the GT86/BRZ compare? I would expect with the little power that it has, in the dry it would require a clutch kick to get it sliding or at least a harsh turn in, off the throttle? In the wet, I'd imagine it slides quite readily.
bennyboysvuk said:
So how do the GT86/BRZ compare? I would expect with the little power that it has, in the dry it would require a clutch kick to get it sliding or at least a harsh turn in, off the throttle?
No. that's the whole point of 200, it's not "little", just half of many other cars on the road. With an LSD dry tarmac is no problem.The Primacy tyre is surprisingly grippy though and the slides are not so much on tap as Clarkson implied.
bennyboysvuk said:
So how do the GT86/BRZ compare? I would expect with the little power that it has, in the dry it would require a clutch kick to get it sliding or at least a harsh turn in, off the throttle?
That shouldn't be necessary in any car. You can drift a Yaris if you want; you just need to drive it on the limit with a bias in the balance towards oversteer. Look at the standard Elise for example - nowhere near enough power and way too much rear grip to break traction with power in the dry, but you can drift them all day long around a race track.bennyboysvuk said:
So how do the GT86/BRZ compare? I would expect with the little power that it has, in the dry it would require a clutch kick to get it sliding or at least a harsh turn in, off the throttle? In the wet, I'd imagine it slides quite readily.
That's about right. In the dry, my BRZ has too much grip and too little torque to slide on power alone. You need to throw it into the corner and back off, or pop the clutch to get the slide started. In the wet, *preventing* the car going sideways is the hard bit! Lots of fun.Compared with the M135i, the BRZ has instant throttle response, a very low centre of gravity, and a helical LSD, all of which make it a purer drivers' car, despite being a lot slower.
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