RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
kambites said:
I would be buying a (used) GT86, not renting it. 
Then your missing my point! Again I'm trying to answer the OP who asked why aren't they selling.
Quite simply its too expensive, about 6-8k too expensive. Toyota took a gamble on the hype & overpriced it, they lost out big time. Compare the cost of UK car to the cost in countries where it has been a success, the US price is the same as the uk £ price!!!
Price up a tin top MX-5 compared to the GT86 & you'll see what I'm on about. If Mazda did a pretty coupe MX-5 it would be a huge sales success without a doubt.
I ordered a new one way way before they came out, I cancelled it when the price was announced
EVO said:
Okay, it's badged as a Scion FR-S, but the prices have been announced for the US-market Toyota GT 86. For the princely sum of $ 24,930 - around £15,770 - you can have a six-speed manual Scion FR-S signed and sealed, almost £10,000 less than the European-market version.
This actually puts the Scion FR-S prices lower than those of the cut-price GT 86 'RC' in Japan, but the FR-S is no cut-price special, it features a decent standard spec as well as the same 200bhp boxer engine and six-speed manual (or automatic) transmission.
In reality its similar weight/hp/fun as an MX-5, which is cheaper on all counts & has the bonus of open air motoring. The MX-5 is a huge sales success, priced right, good residuals on the whole, despite being underpowered, expensive road tax. Nobody needs an MX-5 but the want is there. This actually puts the Scion FR-S prices lower than those of the cut-price GT 86 'RC' in Japan, but the FR-S is no cut-price special, it features a decent standard spec as well as the same 200bhp boxer engine and six-speed manual (or automatic) transmission.
Price up a tin top MX-5 compared to the GT86 & you'll see what I'm on about. If Mazda did a pretty coupe MX-5 it would be a huge sales success without a doubt.
I ordered a new one way way before they came out, I cancelled it when the price was announced
The problem with these is, they don't seem "special" enough to buy as a weekend car, but for a daily driver, you'd probably want a nicer interior and a bit more mid range grunt.
Would I replace my Megane 250 with one of these? No. For daily driving, having to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere would become incredibly annoying. It's worse when you consider then MX5 2.0L is a few grand cheaper and just as quick.
Now, an STI version at a similar price point to the Megane 275/Golf R/Leon Cupra? That would be more like it.
Would I replace my Megane 250 with one of these? No. For daily driving, having to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere would become incredibly annoying. It's worse when you consider then MX5 2.0L is a few grand cheaper and just as quick.
Now, an STI version at a similar price point to the Megane 275/Golf R/Leon Cupra? That would be more like it.
framerateuk said:
Now, an STI version at a similar price point to the Megane 275/Golf R/Leon Cupra? That would be more like it.
How on earth are they meant to produce a relatively low-volume bespoke chassis sports car for the same price as a mainstream hatchback that's produced in the millions with an engine in a similar state of tune? That's no different to saying the Cayman should compete on price with the Golf. It is an interesting point though. If Toyota released a 300bhp version with a better interior for £30k (I think that's about what a Golf R costs?), would anyone buy it?
Edited by kambites on Thursday 26th February 10:19
When these get a bit older/cheaper then I would go and look at one but as a new car there are much better options as already pointed out.
The new MX5 doesn't do the Toybaru any favours either, especially on the interior. If I had to pick I would go the for MX5 over one of these every time.
The new MX5 doesn't do the Toybaru any favours either, especially on the interior. If I had to pick I would go the for MX5 over one of these every time.
framerateuk said:
For daily driving, having to rev the nuts off it to get anywhere would become incredibly annoying. It's worse when you consider then MX5 2.0L is a few grand cheaper and just as quick.
Unless our definitions of what constitutes "daily driving" differ, then this is just hyperbole. 200bhp is much more than adequate for day to day driving, and if it isn't I'd say you need to re-evaluate your own driving ability.I'll absolutely hold my hand up and admit that the car lacks that low end punch that most people seem to like, but to claim you need to "rev the nuts off it" just to negotiate a daily commute is twaddle.
Also, on paper, my old MX5 2.0l was not as quick, although I grant you that day to day, the difference would be negligible.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 10:28
Conscript said:
Unless our definitions of what constitutes "daily driving" differ, then this is just hyperbole. 200bhp is much more than adequate for day to day driving, and if it isn't I'd say you need to re-evaluate your own driving ability.
I'll absolutely hold my hand up and admit that the car lacks that low end punch that most people seem to like, but to claim you need to "rev the nuts off it" just to negotiate a daily commute is twaddle.
I think the point he may be trying to make is that the GT86 is supposed to be and looks like (and indeed is!) a sports car, but if your general car buyer buys something sporty they probably don't want to get into an audi diesel and actually feel that it is faster in day to day conditions.I'll absolutely hold my hand up and admit that the car lacks that low end punch that most people seem to like, but to claim you need to "rev the nuts off it" just to negotiate a daily commute is twaddle.
rightly or wrongly I may add!
chrispmartha said:
kambites said:
Yes I think the answer is extremely simple - it costs too much to lease. What I want to know, is "why?".
I think maybe the question is a bit of a reverse thing, I'm at a loss as to how the Golf R can be had so cheap!kambites said:
How on earth are they meant to produce a relatively low-volume bespoke chassis sports car for the same price as a mainstream hatchback that's produced in the millions with an engine in a similar state of tune? That's no different to saying the Cayman should compete on price with the Golf.
Really though? They already have a turbocharged version of the BRZ engine in the Legacy. With these cars now at 21k new, are you really saying that at the 30k-32k price point that they can't produce one with a turbo, bigger brakes and other components to deal with the additional power?kambites said:
It is an interesting point though. If Toyota released a 300bhp version with a better interior for £30k (I think that's about what a Golf R costs?), would anyone buy it?
I'd buy one at that price. It would perfectly suit my needs for a daily driver.framerateuk said:
I'd buy one at that price. It would perfectly suit my needs for a daily driver.
You'd actually buy one, rather than leasing it? I suppose we have to assume that if the list price rose 50%, the leasing costs would too so you'd be looking at £600 a month!I suspect the performance improvements would be a lot cheaper than fixing the perceived quality issues with the cabin. As you say, how much can it cost to bolt a turbo onto it, given that the engine (or something very similar) is already turbocharged elsewhere?
I still think a £23-24k 200bhp turbo diesel would be the biggest seller, though.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 26th February 10:35
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