RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
Conscript said:
Unless our definitions of what constitutes "daily driving" differ, then this is just hyperbole. 200bhp is much more than adequate for day to day driving, and if it isn't I'd say you need to re-evaluate your own driving ability.
I'll absolutely hold my hand up and admit that the car lacks that low end punch that most people seem to like, but to claim you need to "rev the nuts off it" just to negotiate a daily commute is twaddle.
I have a Caterham for trackdays and weekends. I'm quite aware of what power you need to "make progress" on the road.I'll absolutely hold my hand up and admit that the car lacks that low end punch that most people seem to like, but to claim you need to "rev the nuts off it" just to negotiate a daily commute is twaddle.
You could definitely use for for daily driving, but it's not what I want in a daily driver. I'd rather a turbocharged engine with more low down torque, especially when I'm on the motorway. I'm by no means saying that everyone should want that.
kambites said:
You'd actually buy one, rather than leasing it? I suppose we have to assume that if the list price rose 50%, the leasing costs would too so you'd be looking at £600 a month!
I don't think I'd lease a car again, I'd rather pay up front and get a good deal than have the monthly payments.framerateuk said:
I don't think I'd lease a car again, I'd rather pay up front and get a good deal than have the monthly payments.
So you've got £32k cash, I personally wouldn't be putting it in a GT86, 300hp and some nice soft touch plastics or not.Were all different though and thats what makes the world interesting
budgie smuggler said:
I really like the ethos of the car. But having reached the point in life where I could afford to buy new, I find myself needing a car with 4 usable seats and preferably 4 doors. 
I rather liked this mockup:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I wonder if they could make a lightweight version like that?I rather liked this mockup:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Did the RX8 sell well - I used to see ( and still do ) many more of them around than the GT86? Not sure if that's just round my way though?
I had a go in the GT86 but like budgie smuggler it was just a bit too cramped for my 12yo and 9yo in the back with 2 adults in the front
In the end I spent my cash on changing my 328 and 10 yo Cooper S for a new 5-door warm hatch and a rwd hatch with similar performance/dimensions to the Subaru/Toyota ( albeit heavier but it does run on 'skinny 205s' )
Edited by s m on Thursday 26th February 10:54
I'd consider things like an Elise S, or perhaps a TVR 350, but I've already got a 7 so they'd seem to be covering the same ground, so I'd rather something newer/(hopefully) more reliable that I could use for a while and not worry about it corroding in the winter salt!
I've had my Megane for 4 and a half years from new, and that'll be staying with me until I see something that really appeals.
I've had my Megane for 4 and a half years from new, and that'll be staying with me until I see something that really appeals.
Edited by framerateuk on Thursday 26th February 10:50
chrispmartha said:
Not really, the car I linked to was for a start cheaper than a new GT6 and again because the finance deals are so poor on the Toyota I can't imagine anyone actually paying £20k+ cash on one of these when there are better alternatives available (new or used) the people that they seem to be aiming these at I would imagine be looking at what they can get for the same money second hand - that was my point!
I haven't got through the thread yet, but please, PLEASE stop calling it a GT6!! It's a GT86. A GT6 is a Triumph!!Sorry, my OCD just can't take it!
kambites said:
How much more does a Golf R actually cost to make than a two litre diesel? A couple of thousand?
And the rest!Regarding the GT86, I really want to like it as I much prefer 4 seat coupes to 2 seater or 4 seater cabriolets but what lets the GT68 down for me is not the engine, not the perceived lack of power, the styling or the interior all or which are fine or can be improved over time.
For me the biggest issue is it is a BMW like coupe which essentially wastes a huge chunk of boot space and restricts access.
Had Toyota made it a liftback coupe like the original AE86 I'd be much keener!
framerateuk said:
I have a Caterham for trackdays and weekends. I'm quite aware of what power you need to "make progress" on the road.
That was the only thing I was rebuking....I'd consider "making progress" and "daily driving" two different things. There's no way anyone could make much progress on my daily commute regardless of power, unless they were suicidal. I was just saying that there is no way the car needs to be redlined constantly to negotiate pulling out of junctions, sitting in a queue of traffic at 30MPH or anything else I'd consider as "daily driving"."Making progress", then I agree with your point - the car needs to be worked harder to extract the power. But then personally, I only do that when I'm actually out driving for fun - in which case, working the car to get the most out of it is what I consider part of the fun anyway.
framerateuk said:
You could definitely use for for daily driving, but it's not what I want in a daily driver. I'd rather a turbocharged engine with more low down torque, especially when I'm on the motorway. I'm by no means saying that everyone should want that.
Absolutely fair enough, I can understand that. No offence was intended or anything 
The biggest problem l see with these cars are the badges. I'm not a badge snob in any way, in fact I deeply want to love these cars but the problems are two fold.
1) not enough power to please the petrol heads who are the minority of buyers if these were to be a success.
2) people these days want a Vw or an audi or a merc or a BMW because they are nice and shiny and a bit posher and available on big finance packages. They look arguably nicer on the outside (the brz isn't pretty) and are far far nicer on the inside. The buyer feels like they have a nice bit of middle class cache in a German badge with soft touch plastics and to hell with driving capabilities. Does it have diesel torque grunt? Yes. Sign me up basically.
I'd have one of these at ten grand but wouldn't ever put my money into one new. The driver side of me thinks 200bhp is a bit lacking and the daily driver side of me says it isn't particularly well appointed or comfortable. The financial side of me says be an individual right up until someone points out a lease deal on a German mega hatch for £280 a month.
End of the day we all want this car to succeed but they pitched it wrong. The subaru badge is lost now as the 90s rally image means little or nothing to people under thirty. Toyota stopped making exiting cars a long time ago, and the lexus-ish back lights age this right back to the late 90s.
If they did what ford has done and make a diesel one it'll sell more. I'm quite sure the new focus ST will be a success because of the oil burner going into it.
These could be a great purchase in three years but for now I'll just admire a gt86 owner for investing early for driving character.
1) not enough power to please the petrol heads who are the minority of buyers if these were to be a success.
2) people these days want a Vw or an audi or a merc or a BMW because they are nice and shiny and a bit posher and available on big finance packages. They look arguably nicer on the outside (the brz isn't pretty) and are far far nicer on the inside. The buyer feels like they have a nice bit of middle class cache in a German badge with soft touch plastics and to hell with driving capabilities. Does it have diesel torque grunt? Yes. Sign me up basically.
I'd have one of these at ten grand but wouldn't ever put my money into one new. The driver side of me thinks 200bhp is a bit lacking and the daily driver side of me says it isn't particularly well appointed or comfortable. The financial side of me says be an individual right up until someone points out a lease deal on a German mega hatch for £280 a month.
End of the day we all want this car to succeed but they pitched it wrong. The subaru badge is lost now as the 90s rally image means little or nothing to people under thirty. Toyota stopped making exiting cars a long time ago, and the lexus-ish back lights age this right back to the late 90s.
If they did what ford has done and make a diesel one it'll sell more. I'm quite sure the new focus ST will be a success because of the oil burner going into it.
These could be a great purchase in three years but for now I'll just admire a gt86 owner for investing early for driving character.
chrispmartha said:
sandman77 said:
Why arent these selling? I just don't get it. I would have one over a 4 series BMW or Audi A5 any day. Plus I would be £10k better off.
Have you sat in one? they are not even close to either the Audi or BMW inside the cabin, they are cheap and nasty looking not a great place to sit. and having driven one and got back in my M135i, it felt underpowered and lacking refinement which is what a lot of people want from a car these days.usually though, the mechanicals are properly done.
I think a major reason for lack of sales is that many people want to willy-wave their 300bhp (and I am not saying everyone who wants 300bhp does for willy-waving purposes) and have monster alloys and wide tyres because other people understand that means the car is "fast, innit"!
I also think Clarkson's view that a car is no good if you have to explain it to people applies (though it's to some extent the same as the above point) - the people who think that Audi s-line is top of the range as it has big wheels (it was so depressing to see in a BMW showroom yesterday a 318d with M Performance wheels and stickers on - bad enough just as an msport model) just won't "get" the BRZ - even if you explain it. And that will put some people off
Now, I know that at least some of the people posting on here aren't willy-wavers but just want something different from what the BRZ offers - hence they buy a second hand Cayman or an M135i
Someone posted that it is cheaper in USA - yes, and so is just about every other car that is sold in the UK too - so it's an utterly meaningless comparison.
But the BZZ/GT86 have sold very well I understand in USA (Subaru going spectacularly well in the states - their cars are targeted there which means that they have sold less well here)
In the mid-90s I had a Subaru Legacy 2.0T - interior crap for the time (had a bit of felt for boot carpet) but the money was spent underneath on the mechanicals. The BRZ is the same
I have had a couple of 7s and en Elise but haven't had a second (third in the family) car for 8 years (went to pay for the house, sadly). The BRZ appeals with four seats as it could do to have as an only car and one that I can use in foul weather (living in Lancashire makes me question the sanity of another 7 - I am getting old...) or as an extra car for fun, with a barge for everyday
I'm a fan - but I haven't bought one (yet?) either. A major reason is that I have to do school runs and need five seats - from summer four will do so I may consider one again. I am also spectacularly incompetent at making a decision as to what to get next...
Someone asked what the auto is like (oddly, less than 10% of BRZs are auto but around 40% of GT86s are I think) - test drove an auto and there is no way I would have one - def go for manual (though on almost any other car I would get auto)
I also think Clarkson's view that a car is no good if you have to explain it to people applies (though it's to some extent the same as the above point) - the people who think that Audi s-line is top of the range as it has big wheels (it was so depressing to see in a BMW showroom yesterday a 318d with M Performance wheels and stickers on - bad enough just as an msport model) just won't "get" the BRZ - even if you explain it. And that will put some people off
Now, I know that at least some of the people posting on here aren't willy-wavers but just want something different from what the BRZ offers - hence they buy a second hand Cayman or an M135i
Someone posted that it is cheaper in USA - yes, and so is just about every other car that is sold in the UK too - so it's an utterly meaningless comparison.
But the BZZ/GT86 have sold very well I understand in USA (Subaru going spectacularly well in the states - their cars are targeted there which means that they have sold less well here)
In the mid-90s I had a Subaru Legacy 2.0T - interior crap for the time (had a bit of felt for boot carpet) but the money was spent underneath on the mechanicals. The BRZ is the same
I have had a couple of 7s and en Elise but haven't had a second (third in the family) car for 8 years (went to pay for the house, sadly). The BRZ appeals with four seats as it could do to have as an only car and one that I can use in foul weather (living in Lancashire makes me question the sanity of another 7 - I am getting old...) or as an extra car for fun, with a barge for everyday
I'm a fan - but I haven't bought one (yet?) either. A major reason is that I have to do school runs and need five seats - from summer four will do so I may consider one again. I am also spectacularly incompetent at making a decision as to what to get next...
Someone asked what the auto is like (oddly, less than 10% of BRZs are auto but around 40% of GT86s are I think) - test drove an auto and there is no way I would have one - def go for manual (though on almost any other car I would get auto)
kambites said:
sandman77 said:
Why arent these selling? I just don't get it. I would have one over a 4 series BMW or Audi A5 any day. Plus I would be £10k better off.
That's not really the right comparison to make. The huuuuge majority of 4-series or A5s are diesels used for pounding the motorways and impressing the neighbours neither of which the GT86 is very good at. I think it has the same problem that Lotus have selling cars in the UK - it's USP is something which will only really appeal to driving enthusiasts and there aren't enough of them.
I'd have one in an instant if they were more practical, but as Kambites and others have said, people like me who love handling, light weight and are fine with only 200bhp are few and far between (even on PH - I get pulled into arguments every day about it actually!). The GT86 and BRZ tick all the boxes for what I want out of a car, plus I'm a big fan of Japanese cars; they're absolutely ideal for me. If I ever move to a van for more practical duties then I'd snap a GT86 up straight away.As a former owner I kind of understand why these cars have not sold well outside the USA.
1. The car never felt slow, but you have to rev the nuts off it compared to a Golf GTI or WRX etc
2. Back seat is almost useless
3. Wonder how much it costs to insure for a 20 something in the UK
4. Handling is fabulous but ride on British roads will be too harsh for many, and the low ground clearance makes traffic bumps and ramps feel treacherous
5. Doesn't have the quality feel of an Audi or VW, although it's much better than some people have written.
6. Gear changes from 1st to 2nd are awful - at least based on my experience of more than one car in the US goes.
7. Bodywork seems to be too easily dented by other people's car doors in parking lots or slightest impact in the garage. This also seems to be the case with Korean cars. VWs and Audis and even Fords seem more robust.
8. Not relaxed on long journeys (too noisy), although seats were excellent.
Having pointed out the negatives above, I enjoyed my GT86 very much. It looked gorgeous and was great fun on country roads in Texas. Just needs a bit of improvement to make it a truly fantastic car. More power and torque would probably have most people forgive all the other shortcomings, and that crappy gearchange from 1st to 2nd....
1. The car never felt slow, but you have to rev the nuts off it compared to a Golf GTI or WRX etc
2. Back seat is almost useless
3. Wonder how much it costs to insure for a 20 something in the UK
4. Handling is fabulous but ride on British roads will be too harsh for many, and the low ground clearance makes traffic bumps and ramps feel treacherous
5. Doesn't have the quality feel of an Audi or VW, although it's much better than some people have written.
6. Gear changes from 1st to 2nd are awful - at least based on my experience of more than one car in the US goes.
7. Bodywork seems to be too easily dented by other people's car doors in parking lots or slightest impact in the garage. This also seems to be the case with Korean cars. VWs and Audis and even Fords seem more robust.
8. Not relaxed on long journeys (too noisy), although seats were excellent.
Having pointed out the negatives above, I enjoyed my GT86 very much. It looked gorgeous and was great fun on country roads in Texas. Just needs a bit of improvement to make it a truly fantastic car. More power and torque would probably have most people forgive all the other shortcomings, and that crappy gearchange from 1st to 2nd....
I would buy one of these if I had to get rid of the Elise, but I'd be wanting to mod with the Cosworth n/a power pack for 230 - 240 bhp and add the OZ racing wheels (but none of the nasty aero addenda) so that would add probably 6 grand to the cost straight away which is a lot of money.
I'm not too fussed by the cheap plastics in the dash, I'd rather the money was spent on the mechanicals rather than the VW/Audi way of soft touch plastics and the engineering side made of cheese.
If they did boost the power, brakes etc and market it for £30k as has been suggested the PH massive would slaughter them with comparisons with the V8 Mustang so things wouldn't get any better... But then 95% of PH doesn't care about driving 'feel' so what hope have Toyota got of the public understanding it.
I'm not too fussed by the cheap plastics in the dash, I'd rather the money was spent on the mechanicals rather than the VW/Audi way of soft touch plastics and the engineering side made of cheese.
If they did boost the power, brakes etc and market it for £30k as has been suggested the PH massive would slaughter them with comparisons with the V8 Mustang so things wouldn't get any better... But then 95% of PH doesn't care about driving 'feel' so what hope have Toyota got of the public understanding it.
I find it a tad disturbing that PH themself push on with this BS. The car has sold very well and well up to the set targets, stated by the manufacturer. Just because it has a tough time selling in the UK doesnt mean its the same all over the world. The price strategy seems to differ alot around the world compared to the competitors, I think they overshot it a little bit in many european contries. But at least here in sweden it sold well according to the stats ive seen.
Wouldnt mind one myself as a second car, with e85 and some fiddling to get 200whp+ and get a much nicer torque curve..
Wouldnt mind one myself as a second car, with e85 and some fiddling to get 200whp+ and get a much nicer torque curve..
The reason why they don't sell is because the 'prestige' German marques are able to artificially inflate the projected value of their cars at the end of the leases. God know how they do, but they do. Toyota can't, or won't so finance costs more. So the GT-86 costs more to lease. It's that simple. I wonder how VAG/Merc/BMW will keep the circus afloat that much longer.
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