RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
"While we wait for Toyota to stick a turbo on the engine and at last give PHers the power they've been craving,[...]"
Everyone craves for naturally aspirated engines and says "oh, the variety with all those turbocharged engines gets lost, there are no performance NA engines anymore". Here they got one and nearly every magazine says it needs more power and a turbo. Why?! Yes, a bit more power would be nice, for sure. But stick with the NA engine. That´s what the GT86 is all about. Relatively light (for modern standards), revvy engine and fun even at low/moderate speeds.
Everyone wants the old NA engined Clio Sport back. I bet if Toyota bolted a turbocharger on the GT86, it would be exactly the same phenomenon.
Everyone craves for naturally aspirated engines and says "oh, the variety with all those turbocharged engines gets lost, there are no performance NA engines anymore". Here they got one and nearly every magazine says it needs more power and a turbo. Why?! Yes, a bit more power would be nice, for sure. But stick with the NA engine. That´s what the GT86 is all about. Relatively light (for modern standards), revvy engine and fun even at low/moderate speeds.
Everyone wants the old NA engined Clio Sport back. I bet if Toyota bolted a turbocharger on the GT86, it would be exactly the same phenomenon.
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
LordGrover said:
Birzzles said:
The problem is that they are tinny, cheap interior, ridiculous porting of engine noise into the cabin. For people who can actually afford 25k they'd prefer a 3 series or a TT, because they are nicer places to spend time.
Not everyone.kambites said:
cptsideways said:
... they lost out big time....
Did they? Are they actually selling less of them than they expected to? US & Canada Sales are double (almost triple) of the MX-5
Scion FRS
2012 11,417 1470
2013 18,327 1825
2014 14,062 1559
MX5 Miata
2012 6305 711
2013 5780 554
2014 4745 511
Cant find UK sales figures at hand anyone know of a source?
LosEspada said:
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
You need me to tell you?They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Forgetting the apple v orange used v new argument for a moment....
It's because the DC5 understeers, and the GT86, well, doesn't.
kambites said:
aka_kerrly said:
And the rest!
Really? I'd love to see some figures for it. It simply seems logical that given VW make relatively tiny profit margins on a run of the mill Golf (somewhere around 3%) that the cost of a TDI to a Golf R must be more than £2k if there is a circa £10k price difference.
FYI Porsche make 18% profit per vehicle!
Which begs the question even with the combined cost sharing of Toyota and Subaru how much does a GT86 based car actually cost to build? The theory that the two were only going to be slightly different in terms of cosmetics should mean the build cost is largely the same yet Subaru are selling their version for less than Toyota.
For what it's worth I like both models equally but there are hardly any Subarus around since there appear to be so few Subaru dealers in the UK.
My mate has one and from the brief ride in it, loved it. Felt light, can imagine it will be great fun and rewarding on a track and twisty roads
Was a lot quicker, or felt a lot quicker than i was expecting.
We've both driven very high performance cars so have a benchmark and me personally I love light weight cars and relying on skill or lack of it and then the learning on a track to get the most of a car.
Problem for me is the space in the back. You couldn't get anyone in there bar babies. No leg room.
So for me with kids, it would be a weekend car. I have an £10k Elise for that. So this would be an Elise replacement for me. If it had the space I would of considered getting rid of the Elise and my wifes Mini for this. But the mini has more passenger room.
So if I was after a 2 seater hardtop weekend car in the £20k region, Exige or Cayman would be my choice.
Again think they dropped doing a convertible, this would of opened up a whole new market for them IMO.
Even people without families would have to take in the lack off passenger space if it was the main car.
Another mistake by Toyota, which my mate made the point, is why isn't this car/shape being used for their WRC program.
If you have this car flying around the Welsh forests, German tarmac, snowy Monte, you'd have the one car in the WRC "affordable" to people and throw in the Subaru history this would/should help increase the brand awareness.
Was a lot quicker, or felt a lot quicker than i was expecting.
We've both driven very high performance cars so have a benchmark and me personally I love light weight cars and relying on skill or lack of it and then the learning on a track to get the most of a car.
Problem for me is the space in the back. You couldn't get anyone in there bar babies. No leg room.
So for me with kids, it would be a weekend car. I have an £10k Elise for that. So this would be an Elise replacement for me. If it had the space I would of considered getting rid of the Elise and my wifes Mini for this. But the mini has more passenger room.
So if I was after a 2 seater hardtop weekend car in the £20k region, Exige or Cayman would be my choice.
Again think they dropped doing a convertible, this would of opened up a whole new market for them IMO.
Even people without families would have to take in the lack off passenger space if it was the main car.
Another mistake by Toyota, which my mate made the point, is why isn't this car/shape being used for their WRC program.
If you have this car flying around the Welsh forests, German tarmac, snowy Monte, you'd have the one car in the WRC "affordable" to people and throw in the Subaru history this would/should help increase the brand awareness.
LosEspada said:
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Because I don't want to drive a 9 year old Honda?They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Sound blasé, but that's pretty much it. I was in the market for a new car*. Why would I consider a car which went out of production in 2006 (according to a quick Wiki)?
Extrapolating your argument, you're basically asking why you'd bother buying any new car whilst there exists a second hand card market - and surely the answer to that is obvious?
- used approved.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 11:58
Conscript said:
LosEspada said:
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Because I don't want to drive a 9 year old Honda?They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Sound blasé, but that's pretty much it. I was in the market for a new car*. Why would I consider a car which went out of production in 2006 (according to a quick Wiki)?
Extrapolating your argument, you're basically asking why you'd bother buying any new car whilst there exists a second hand card market - and surely the answer to that is obvious?
- used approved.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 11:58
If you want new / reliable / warranty then you'd not think to buy a DC5 and thus not a GT86.
dtmpower said:
Conscript said:
LosEspada said:
As long as you can buy a low mileage Honda Integra DC5 for less than half the price as one of these, most people will buy the Honda...
They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Because I don't want to drive a 9 year old Honda?They may not be RWD but with similar power & torque figures and a mush more appealing 0-60 time, why would you bother spending 20 grand on one just to see them depreciate?
Sound blasé, but that's pretty much it. I was in the market for a new car*. Why would I consider a car which went out of production in 2006 (according to a quick Wiki)?
Extrapolating your argument, you're basically asking why you'd bother buying any new car whilst there exists a second hand card market - and surely the answer to that is obvious?
- used approved.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 11:58
If you want new / reliable / warranty then you'd not think to buy a DC5 and thus not a GT86.
If I'd gone out and my only aim was to buy a car with certain power and torque figures and a preferred 0-60 time, then yeah, I might have ended up with a DC5.
But no one buys a car like that because there's obviously much more to considered, especially when the car is destined to be the only one you use and needs to fulfil several roles - so yes, I do consider warranty, newness of design and reliability. I don't see why considering those things some how makes you less of a driving enthusiast.
Add to that the fact that I just wanted a GT86. Thought it looked great, sounded great, drove great, put a smile on my face and I had the money to spend, so I bought it.
Edited by Conscript on Thursday 26th February 12:10
Personally, I'd say the issue with the GT86 is that the people it appeals to are probably mostly found on this forum. They'll look beyond headline figures and a not particularly plush interior etc and buy the car purely cause it's fun and 'involving'
Sadly once you take these 'people' and then pick how many actually dip their hands in their pockets to buy the car, that's not a whole lot of people.
Fact remains that in mainstream cars, we are still in an era of Turbo's (even more so than in WRX / EVO days) and big headline power figures. Even the popular N/A cars often still had high headline power figures.
The cars that have bucked the trend have been a very clever bit of marketing. The MX5 has been renowned for being fun to drive etc but it is also a drop-top and quite cute. Hence it also appeals to non-driving enthusiast folk who want a cute convertible. My Mum bought one brand new and 10 years later and loves it, even though she is the furthest from a motoring enthusiast that you'll find.
The GT86 pigeon-holed itself into a very small niché. Not to mention sharing the basis of an engine that is renowned for high hp turbo power, then to the public eye, omitting the turbo and making it slower.
It's clearly not a bad car but sadly its market position and 'public persona' leaves it out in the wilderness to the car buying public.
Sadly once you take these 'people' and then pick how many actually dip their hands in their pockets to buy the car, that's not a whole lot of people.
Fact remains that in mainstream cars, we are still in an era of Turbo's (even more so than in WRX / EVO days) and big headline power figures. Even the popular N/A cars often still had high headline power figures.
The cars that have bucked the trend have been a very clever bit of marketing. The MX5 has been renowned for being fun to drive etc but it is also a drop-top and quite cute. Hence it also appeals to non-driving enthusiast folk who want a cute convertible. My Mum bought one brand new and 10 years later and loves it, even though she is the furthest from a motoring enthusiast that you'll find.
The GT86 pigeon-holed itself into a very small niché. Not to mention sharing the basis of an engine that is renowned for high hp turbo power, then to the public eye, omitting the turbo and making it slower.
It's clearly not a bad car but sadly its market position and 'public persona' leaves it out in the wilderness to the car buying public.
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