Flappy paddle shift - have we reached 'critical mass' yet?

[Durzel]

"Better driver's car" is a subjective quality, surely?

If I find a different kind of enjoyment in flappy paddle driving, does that mean it's an inferior experience? Because I don't heel and toe my way into work every day I presumably must be missing out?

Edited by Durzel on Monday 2nd March 14:13

[amusingduck]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Clearly the people who actually drive them think it makes for a better drivers car then, no?

[TWPC]

RobM77 said:

There was an interesting thread recently on Ferrari 612 values, and it was noted that manual Ferraris fetch a huge amount more than paddle shift ones (it was called 'F1' by Ferrari in years past, but I'm not sure if it was a roboticised manual like BMW's M3 and M6 system, or a torque converter auto). It seems that in general most buyers of new Ferraris want paddle shift, but buyers of secondhand ones want manual. I asked if anyone knew why this was the case, and nobody responded, leaving me to guess that perhaps buyers of brand new cars want the latest thing and are perhaps extremely wealthy people or CEOs etc who aren't necessarily car enthusiasts, whereas once the cars half in value for secondhand purchases, they attract more savvy buyers who are the more traditional car enthusiast preferring a manual.

Good point

[TWPC]

mat205125 said:

In my nostrodamus opinion, the manual shift will live on, as it is cheap, reliable, and proven. It will always be something that enthusiasts will look for, and available for very niche models only ..... the modern performance / super / hyper cars outputs won't be able to cope with some ham fisted sack of meat in the seat controlling and clumsily thumping power to the wheels willy nilly.

Single clutch automated solutions have had their day, and twin clutch boxes won't be far behind. The torque converter auto is king at the moment, and has progressed massively since the old slush shift three speed crap we once knew. The new BMW 8 speed kit is pretty astonishing.

I agree with your point that the manual shift will live on. I think there is already evidence for this in the US, which is surely the laboratory for auto transmission preferences...? Auto gearboxes totally dominate the passenger car market but so vocal and influential are those who really want manual gearboxes that they forced BMW to import manual M5s (which we don't get) and the Corvette now has a reportedly really rather good 7 speed manual with 370Z-style rev matcher.

I think you're probably right about the ultimate triumph of torque converters too. I have to say I find it hilarious that (not unreasonably) we & car journalists all blather on about a desirable engine being one with great flexibility & a broad spread power. Meanwhile ZF are clearly trying to build a gearbox (8 speed BMWs, 9 speed Evoques) that can deal with an engine which is capable of producing useful torque within a window of only about 500 rpm...

A sign of the times, enmissions legislation and all that I know, but I wonder what a Jag XJ12 would have been like with the Evoque's 9 speed auto...? Even worse, imagine what that Evoque would be like with the Jag's 3 speed GM400.

[Durzel]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think that's a rather cynical attitude to it really, though I concede that you make a good general point. I think the comparison with poor quality television is a little specious, though.

Have you tried one of the newer PDK Boxsters or Caymans? I found, to my surprise and particularly in a nearly new Boxster, that the PDK was sublime. It's hard to quantify exactly what it added suffice to say that it made me feel more in control, and like I had more freedom in my hands (though quite what I'd do with that freedom I don't know). I didn't once feel like the paddles subtracted from my enjoyment or engagement with the car, quite the opposite, it added something new.

I'm mostly of the opinion though that manual transmissions happened to be the mechanism by which gears were selected before technology caught up. I don't have an emotional attachment to them, and in stop-start traffic it can feel a bit frustrating - but that's mostly because I've been spoiled by modern semi-autos.

I tend to think (and I'm not saying you are saying this) that people conflate flappy paddles with a loss of control, or "computers taking over" or whatever whereas I'm more of the opinion that it adds an alternative not-necessarily-worse dynamic. In a particularly fast car having your hands on the wheel at all times while flooring it feels quite special. Again, it's hard to quantify and I'm no wordsmith.

Edited by Durzel on Monday 2nd March 15:07