Flappy paddle shift - have we reached 'critical mass' yet?

[MitchT]

Just pondering a couple of points relating to flappy paddle gearshifts and wondering what the wider PH consensus is ...

1: I've read in numerous places that on Ferraris and Lamborghinis the clutches wear out quicker on the 'flappy paddle' cars than they do on the conventional manual versions of the same cars. I would have thought that the clutch would last longer on an automated system as each gearchange will be 'perfect' as there isn't a potentially clumsy human to screw it up occasionally, but anwyay ... is it still the case that they wear out quicker than they might on a conventional system? And what about with ordinary cars like BMWs? I can't see someone who buys a 3 Series saloon with a flappy paddle accepting the clutch wearing out really quickly like a supercar owner might.

2: If I bought a BMW M4 tomorrow (I'm not going to because I can't afford one, but if I did) would its resale value be damaged by me opting for a conventional manual or would a future buyer of the car prefer a conventional system which is likely less fragile and also cheaper to repair if it should break? Or, are we at a point where BMW 'M' car buyers expect the latest tech? There were groans all round when it was revealed that the latest Audi R8 will not be offered with a 'stick' shift, so clearly some people still want a stick even if manufacturers are starting to move on. Which is more desirable right now? The flappy paddle is still an optional extra in most of the BMW range so I'm thinking it's the exception rather than the rule, but elsewhere I've read that the manual has had its day on BMW 'M' cars and you should opt for the flappy paddle to make your car easy to sell in future, like that's what everyone will want.

So, what gives? Is the flappy paddle gearshift the thing now or are we still some way off reaching critical mass?

[Claudia Skies]

With respect, you don't seem to understand what "flappy paddle" means.

There are essentially two types of auto boxes,

1. Conventional autos with torque converter - which may well have paddles to allow manual gear selection. These are no different from the old gearstick which enabled manual selection of 4-3-2 etc. The computer will not allow "impossible shifts" or "over-revving". However, if you use downshifts instead of using the brakes you will accelerate wear on the transmission - with or without paddles.

2. PDK type transmissions which have no torque converter but a fully computer-controlled clutch (1 or 2) and transmission. Again, the computer will do its best to protect the transmission from idiot drivers by refusing "impossible shifts" and "over-revving".

The trend to auto boxes of all kinds is to protect the driveline from idiot drivers with a big (high torque) engine. However, if you drive like a gimp you will accelerate the wear on your auto box of any kind. It makes no difference whether it has "flappy paddles" or not.

[-Z-]

They have reached critical mass now. With dual clutch transmissions, any wear issues seem to have been solved also.

Manuals still have their place for involvement and sound, you can't beat a good PAUSE in a V8 cacophony.

Things like manual M4s will be worth less initially but be worth more long term, like 612 Scagliettis.

[Shaoxter]

Claudia Skies said:

With respect, you don't seem to understand what "flappy paddle" means.

But I'd say there's actually 3 types of paddle shift:
1) Torque converter auto
2) Single clutch, e.g. SMG/F1/E-Gear
3) Double clutch, e.g. DSG/PDK/DCT

[Wills2]

Claudia Skies said:

With respect, you don't seem to understand what "flappy paddle" means.

There are essentially two types of auto boxes,

1. Conventional autos with torque converter - which may well have paddles to allow manual gear selection. These are no different from the old gearstick which enabled manual selection of 4-3-2 etc. The computer will not allow "impossible shifts" or "over-revving". However, if you use downshifts instead of using the brakes you will accelerate wear on the transmission - with or without paddles.

2. PDK type transmissions which have no torque converter but a fully computer-controlled clutch (1 or 2) and transmission. Again, the computer will do its best to protect the transmission from idiot drivers by refusing "impossible shifts" and "over-revving".

The trend to auto boxes of all kinds is to protect the driveline from idiot drivers with a big (high torque) engine. However, if you drive like a gimp you will accelerate the wear on your auto box of any kind. It makes no difference whether it has "flappy paddles" or not.

There are also the earlier single clutch robotised gear boxes like SMG and Ferrari's F1 transmission, manuals with hydraulic actuators.

The numbers are better with the new boxes hence the adoption rate.

As far as residuals are concerned look at what a manual Ferrari goes for vs the F1 versions and you'll see past a certain point they hold and command more money than the "flappy paddles" but it can be quite model specific.

[Claudia Skies]

Claudia Skies said:

a fully computer-controlled clutch (1 or 2)

I thought I had covered the single/dual clutch point.

[Matt UK]

MitchT said:

2: If I bought a BMW M4 tomorrow (I'm not going to because I can't afford one, but if I did) would its resale value be damaged by me opting for a conventional manual or would a future buyer of the car prefer a conventional system which is likely less fragile and also cheaper to repair if it should break? Or, are we at a point where BMW 'M' car buyers expect the latest tech?

Interesting question.
There are two decent drivers cars that after 10+ years have depreciated, by and large, into the hands of Joe Public - the BMW M3 and the Porsche 911.

Have a trawl of the classified ads. In both cases the base vanilla manual cars with sensible wheels are holding their value much better than the auto equivalents. Unless of course this is purely the case when I decide to consider them...

I think in another 10 to 20 years time, manual sports cars will be quite rare, but very highly prized.

[CarAbuser]

I think wear rates on non-supercars would be less on the automatic transmissions than manuals.

It all depends how the box has been programmed to shift. Most standard cars are conservative on their shifts unless switched into their 'sport' mode.

I don't have any experience with supercars but I would imagine most have the box setup to provide visceral shifts for the excitement of the driver.

[Baryonyx]

The technology is incredible these days. Whether or not you want it is another matter altogether! I remember having a go in an SMG MR2 Roadster a few years ago and thinking the transmission was utterly crap, I cannot stress how glad I am that that sort of automatic seems to be fading into obscurity.

[Mr Tidy]

I think we have reached a point where new car buyers grew up on Xbox/PS2 so auto/flappy is all they can cope with.
A mate of mine deals in 60's classics and auto is y certainly not a desirable option on a MkII Jag, E-type, Triumph TR, Healey 3000!
Maybe that is why Aston Martin offer a factory conversion to manual??
But I JUST DON'T WANT AN AUTO!!!

[PomBstard]

Mr Tidy said:

But I JUST DON'T WANT AN AUTO!!!

Same here. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to influence what comes onto the secondhand market and will need to take whatever I can get. Over here I think we're a bit further down this line already as autos of all types are more common than manuals. It means its tricky to find a three-pedal car at the best of times, and in many circumstances (E39 and on 5-series BMW for example) just about impossible to get a manual version (M5 and imports notwithstanding).

Previous comments about short-term v long-term values seem to hold true for sporty versions, but perhaps not so for run-of-the-mill stuff.

[mattdaniels]

MitchT said:

1: I've read in numerous places that on Ferraris and Lamborghinis the clutches wear out quicker on the 'flappy paddle' cars than they do on the conventional manual versions of the same cars. I would have thought that the clutch would last longer on an automated system as each gearchange will be 'perfect' as there isn't a potentially clumsy human to screw it up occasionally

It's not the normal driving that kills the clutches in these, it's the low speed maneuvering - crawling in traffic, waiting and pulling out at junctions, parking. The F1 gearbox in the Ferrari will automatically drop in to neutral after a few seconds being in 1st if you don't move (usually with impeccably embarrassing timing), in an attempt to save clutch wear.

[bennyboysvuk]

Shaoxter said:

But I'd say there's actually 3 types of paddle shift:
1) Torque converter auto
2) Single clutch, e.g. SMG/F1/E-Gear
3) Double clutch, e.g. DSG/PDK/DCT

And then there's the flappy paddle with a clutch pedal, though there aren't many of those, granted.

1) Torque converter auto
2) Single clutch, e.g. SMG/F1/E-Gear (with or without clutch pedal [as per the Ariel Atom])
3) Double clutch, e.g. DSG/PDK/DCT

[kambites]

Even that's an over-simplification because many boxes have both torque convertors and clutches these days. As far as I can see, there's either one type of automatic gearbox (defined simply by the fact the shift rails aren't moved by human muscle power) or loads (with the boundaries drawn on all sorts of technical points) depending on how you look at it.

Anyway I think the answer to the original question is that they wont truly reach "critical mass" until they become the norm on things that people buy as first cars, thereby negating any point in getting a manual licence. I'd say that point is at lest 20 years away but it's certainly approaching.

Edited by kambites on Monday 2nd March 07:50

[coppice]

Most cars bought are still things like Focus, Astra, Polo and Fiesta , none of which is I think available with paddles. I am probably not the only one who will mourn the loss of an educated right foot - so much more satisfying to hear your own heel and toeing than some algorithims or whatever

[amusingduck]

Mr Tidy said:

I think we have reached a point where new car buyers grew up on Xbox/PS2 so auto/flappy is all they can cope with.

Mr Tidy to the geriatric ward please

[JonnyVTEC]

Mr Tidy said:

I think we have reached a point where new car buyers grew up on Xbox/PS2 so auto/flappy is all they can cope with.
A mate of mine deals in 60's classics and auto is y certainly not a desirable option on a MkII Jag, E-type, Triumph TR, Healey 3000!
Maybe that is why Aston Martin offer a factory conversion to manual??

Yeah the NES was much better for getting kids ready to be real drivers... What with its power glove to simulate a 5 speed manual gearbox.

[Shaoxter]

mattdaniels said:

It's not the normal driving that kills the clutches in these, it's the low speed maneuvering - crawling in traffic, waiting and pulling out at junctions, parking. The F1 gearbox in the Ferrari will automatically drop in to neutral after a few seconds being in 1st if you don't move (usually with impeccably embarrassing timing), in an attempt to save clutch wear.

Why would that save clutch wear? Surely the clutch would be disengaged if you're at a standstill?

[kambites]

Shaoxter said:

Why would that save clutch wear? Surely the clutch would be disengaged if you're at a standstill?

Maybe it's clutch release bearing they're worried about rather than the actual plate?

Interesting question... how do dual clutch gear boxes protect their thrust bearings given that one of the clutches is disengaged all of the time?

Edited by kambites on Monday 2nd March 09:34

[Ari]

There are, as has been stated, two basic types of auto, traditional torque converter auto and automated manual (the latter also available as a twin clutch where the car pre-engages the next gear then very rapidly swaps cogs by simultaneously disengaging the clutch transmitting the current gear and engaging the clutch of the next gear for an instant seamless change).

To understand the clutch wear issue you have to understand how the gearboxes work.

Torque converters, in essence, work like two fans facing each other, one connected to the engine, the other to the wheels. Spin the engine fan with the engine and the wind spins the one connected to the wheels and drives the car. Obviously its a lot more complex than that, they're in fluid for a start and there is a clutch lock up on most modern ones once moving to reduce losses, but the point is there is nothing to wear when you sit stationary on a hill holding the car on the engine. You can have 'flappy paddles' that instruct the car what gear to be in, but the operation of the gearbox remains the same.

Automated manuals are exactly that. They're like the three pedals and 'H' pattern stick in a normal manual except that 'robots' and computers are pushing the clutch in and out and moving the lever about. Again, the reality is a little different, especially in dual clutch automated manuals, but in essence that's the basics.

The problem of exaggerated clutch wear in automated manuals is not people driving the car hard, it is people not understanding what they have and how it works.

A perfect example would be, I was driving into Cornwall once in summer traffic, which was at a crawl. We were on a two lane uphill section which was stopping and starting. In my torque converter auto, no problem. Leave in drive and ease up the hill on the throttle.

But further up there was a horrific smell of arid burning clutch and as we slowly moved past the other lane we saw an Aston Martin (DB9 I think) which must have had an automated manual. Trouble is that many Aston drivers buy the car for the looks and badge and have no idea about the oily bits. The driver would have seen 'PRND' and assumed he had a normal auto like his old Jag or whatever. As a result he was sitting for half an hour literally slipping the clutch to hold the car on the hill and to creep forward.

That's why you hear of exaggerated clutch wear on automated manuals, people see an automatic gearbox interface and think that is what they have and drive them as such.