RE: Geneva 2015 - Liveblog
Discussion
MCBrowncoat said:
Blayney said:
dgmx5 said:
Blayney said:
The glockenspiel looks like a mansory Enzo. aka s
te. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today.
Mr Glickenhaus is by all accounts very wealthy which allows him to do these things. He is also a very keen petrolhead that frequents forums such as PH and indeed contributes.te. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today. Whilst he should be subject to the same critique as any other car maker, please can we be a bit more respectful in the language and a bit more constructive in what it is you do not like. I do not admire this car as much as his previous creation, but I think it is far removed from being lumped in with Mansory.
It may well be based on the race car but I happen to think all current prototypes in lmp1 and lmp2 are ugly.
I just think that front end looks like an Enzo, also a horrible looking car, with a body kit. The rest of the car does nothing for me.
It's just an opinion that I know some people disagree with and others agree with.
To the post suggesting I am jealous is a bit unfair as I'd forgotten who the guy was and frankly don't care what he does with his money. I can guarantee he doesn't care what I think either. If I had the money to build my own racing car I certainly wouldn't care what was said on a forum I'd be too busy having fun.
That's precisely why "retro" designs are very difficult to make work. Take, for instance, the 1970 Dodge Challenger vs. the modern version. The modern one looks clunky and top-heavy compared to the original. 
Glad to see Mansory back on-form. After their Huracan was revealed, I almost thought they were developing good taste. What in the world would PH do if we couldn't make fun of Mansory?
In other news, the more I see of the Vulcan, the more I like it. It may not have the high-tech sophistication of the "hybrid trinity" but, IMO, it is every bit as worthy to sit at the hypercar (still don't like that term) table.
The GT3 RS, 488 GTB, and Vantage GT3 do nothing for me, for various reasons. This, along with that Koenigsegg do it for me! For me, Geneva has always been about excess. Outlandish supercars and tuners with questionable taste. I also eagerly await what the nutty Swiss duo of Rinspeed and Sbarro come up with from their demented minds!
This is just
In other news, the more I see of the Vulcan, the more I like it. It may not have the high-tech sophistication of the "hybrid trinity" but, IMO, it is every bit as worthy to sit at the hypercar (still don't like that term) table.
The GT3 RS, 488 GTB, and Vantage GT3 do nothing for me, for various reasons. This, along with that Koenigsegg do it for me! For me, Geneva has always been about excess. Outlandish supercars and tuners with questionable taste. I also eagerly await what the nutty Swiss duo of Rinspeed and Sbarro come up with from their demented minds!
This is just
bobberz said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Blayney said:
dgmx5 said:
Blayney said:
The glockenspiel looks like a mansory Enzo. aka ste. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today.
Mr Glickenhaus is by all accounts very wealthy which allows him to do these things. He is also a very keen petrolhead that frequents forums such as PH and indeed contributes.te. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today. Whilst he should be subject to the same critique as any other car maker, please can we be a bit more respectful in the language and a bit more constructive in what it is you do not like. I do not admire this car as much as his previous creation, but I think it is far removed from being lumped in with Mansory.
It may well be based on the race car but I happen to think all current prototypes in lmp1 and lmp2 are ugly.
I just think that front end looks like an Enzo, also a horrible looking car, with a body kit. The rest of the car does nothing for me.
It's just an opinion that I know some people disagree with and others agree with.
To the post suggesting I am jealous is a bit unfair as I'd forgotten who the guy was and frankly don't care what he does with his money. I can guarantee he doesn't care what I think either. If I had the money to build my own racing car I certainly wouldn't care what was said on a forum I'd be too busy having fun.
That's precisely why "retro" designs are very difficult to make work. Take, for instance, the 1970 Dodge Challenger vs. the modern version. The modern one looks clunky and top-heavy compared to the original. "He shared with us an interesting stat, based on the time the engine takes at full throttle in third gear to go from 2,000rpm to maximum longitudinal acceleration - roughly equivalent to maximum torque apparently. In a 458 he says this takes 0.7 seconds, against a claimed 2.1 in a McLaren 650S. For the 488 GTB it's 0.8 seconds"
That's such a meaningless stat!
That's such a meaningless stat!
RumbleOfThunder said:
"He shared with us an interesting stat, based on the time the engine takes at full throttle in third gear to go from 2,000rpm to maximum longitudinal acceleration - roughly equivalent to maximum torque apparently. In a 458 he says this takes 0.7 seconds, against a claimed 2.1 in a McLaren 650S. For the 488 GTB it's 0.8 seconds"
That's such a meaningless stat!
Drive a car which takes 2s to achieve peak torque from cruise and one which does it instantly then say it's meaningless.That's such a meaningless stat!
I call nonsense though from Ferrari.
zeppelin101 said:
RumbleOfThunder said:
"He shared with us an interesting stat, based on the time the engine takes at full throttle in third gear to go from 2,000rpm to maximum longitudinal acceleration - roughly equivalent to maximum torque apparently. In a 458 he says this takes 0.7 seconds, against a claimed 2.1 in a McLaren 650S. For the 488 GTB it's 0.8 seconds"
That's such a meaningless stat!
Drive a car which takes 2s to achieve peak torque from cruise and one which does it instantly then say it's meaningless.That's such a meaningless stat!
I call nonsense though from Ferrari.
If you are at full throttle in third gear, at 2000rpm, then the engine is already making maximum boost and hence BMEP. So, the time it takes to get to maximum LongAcc simple depends at what engine speed peak torque occurs. For example, for a BMW 335d, peak torque is AT 2000rpm, so it would take zero seconds to get to max LongAcc! So by that reconing a 335d is clearly a "Betterer" car that either a 675LT /498 etc.......
It also depends on the gear ratios chosen and a million other factors.
A FAR better measure of the engine response to throttle inputs is the 10-90% torque response. This is the time it takes the engine to increase it's output from 10% of the maximum torque at any engine speed to 90% of it.
For an N/A engine this is broadly equal across the engine speed range, and simply depends on how quickly the throttle can open and the intake manifold volume.
For a Turbo engine, it also depends on the response of the boosting system, as in order to make the high specific torque a high positive plenum pressure is required.
The other issue is that for a car, you don't actually want too fast a reponse, because it makes the car very difficult indeed to drive. Typical electrically assisted boosting systems can now provide maximum boost pressure in approximately 0.1sec or less. And if you drive a car fitted with these systems it is HORRIBLE. You floor the throttle and the drivetrain winds ups instantly, the rear wheels spin almost instantly and then you spend the next 3 sec pogoing around as the drive train oscilates/unwinds. yuk. In fact, the first thing the driveability calibrators do is to damp the maximum torque application rate to match the vehicles fundamental powertrain stiffness, which for a road car, with rubber mounts etc is generally in the order of 2hz.
Blayney said:
bobberz said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Blayney said:
dgmx5 said:
Blayney said:
The glockenspiel looks like a mansory Enzo. aka ste. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today.
Mr Glickenhaus is by all accounts very wealthy which allows him to do these things. He is also a very keen petrolhead that frequents forums such as PH and indeed contributes.te. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today. Whilst he should be subject to the same critique as any other car maker, please can we be a bit more respectful in the language and a bit more constructive in what it is you do not like. I do not admire this car as much as his previous creation, but I think it is far removed from being lumped in with Mansory.
It may well be based on the race car but I happen to think all current prototypes in lmp1 and lmp2 are ugly.
I just think that front end looks like an Enzo, also a horrible looking car, with a body kit. The rest of the car does nothing for me.
It's just an opinion that I know some people disagree with and others agree with.
To the post suggesting I am jealous is a bit unfair as I'd forgotten who the guy was and frankly don't care what he does with his money. I can guarantee he doesn't care what I think either. If I had the money to build my own racing car I certainly wouldn't care what was said on a forum I'd be too busy having fun.
That's precisely why "retro" designs are very difficult to make work. Take, for instance, the 1970 Dodge Challenger vs. the modern version. The modern one looks clunky and top-heavy compared to the original. Returning to your question as to what pretty cars there are on sale today, I thought you were being unnecessarily cynical but then tried to list some...
Aston Martins, especially the Rapide
Ferrari 458
Jag F-Type (as already mentioned)
Mazda MX-5 (the new one, not uncontroversial)
It's bloody depressing, isn't it?
I tried to think of some mass market beauties like the Pug 406 coupe and original Audi A8 but they just don't exist. Maybe the new Ford Mondeo...? Maybe not. I think the front of the new VW Passat is very striking but it's not beautiful. Ditto the 3 door Seat Leon.
Hmm
RumbleOfThunder said:
"He shared with us an interesting stat, based on the time the engine takes at full throttle in third gear to go from 2,000rpm to maximum longitudinal acceleration - roughly equivalent to maximum torque apparently. In a 458 he says this takes 0.7 seconds, against a claimed 2.1 in a McLaren 650S. For the 488 GTB it's 0.8 seconds"
That's such a meaningless stat!
So you don't think that's an incredibly good way of measuring turbo lag then? Is it that you don't understand the sentence, or that anything with the word "Ferrari" in it us up for ridicule?That's such a meaningless stat!
Max_Torque said:
The other issue is that for a car, you don't actually want too fast a reponse, because it makes the car very difficult indeed to drive. Typical electrically assisted boosting systems can now provide maximum boost pressure in approximately 0.1sec or less. And if you drive a car fitted with these systems it is HORRIBLE. You floor the throttle and the drivetrain winds ups instantly, the rear wheels spin almost instantly and then you spend the next 3 sec pogoing around as the drive train oscilates/unwinds. yuk. In fact, the first thing the driveability calibrators do is to damp the maximum torque application rate to match the vehicles fundamental powertrain stiffness, which for a road car, with rubber mounts etc is generally in the order of 2hz.
Given a "perfect" drivetrain in the world of spherical cows, could there be other issues with "instant" throttle response? Not with the drivetrain behaving weirdly, but just driver induced oscillation? "whoops too much, not enough, too much, just a tad..."jamespink said:
So you don't think that's an incredibly good way of measuring turbo lag then? Is it that you don't understand the sentence, or that anything with the word "Ferrari" in it us up for ridicule?
Possibly - although it depends on the detail. They've chosen 2000rpm as the starting point for the test. The McLaren makes close to peak torque from 3000rpm. What they are measuring there may not be lag so much as a difference in the shape of the torque curves. I'd rather hear what they did explained by an engineer rather than via a marketing man.For me the best car at the show is the Koenigsegg Regara. Christian and the team have made a beautiful carbon fibre supercar, a 700hp hybrid powertrain, and it still uses the twin turbo V8 with about 800hp. To save weight they have taken inspiration from 'top fuel' dragsters because there's no gearbox, just a very strong torque converter. It's the best car Koenigsegg have made, and the performance figures are completely bonkers. It's like a road going spacecraft.
Max_Torque said:
A FAR better measure of the engine response to throttle inputs is the 10-90% torque response. This is the time it takes the engine to increase it's output from 10% of the maximum torque at any engine speed to 90% of it.
Agreed, although starting from a notional power requirement to maintain "a speed" in "a gear" and then measuring the time it takes to achieve full load is more representative in a vehicle.The 10-90% torque test is useful on a testbed where speed is fixed as a comparison test but in vehicle land is not so useful as speed is never fixed. But then that's where the driveability bods get involved...
I remember years ago when Eaton released their TVS range of chargers they used the first example to attempt to prove how the fuel economy in vehicle going from a 2.8l V6 to a 2.0l I4 was compromised compared to using a supercharger on the 2.0l based on the transient response and "available reserve power" within an acceptable period. An interesting metric, but slightly convoluted
http://www.engine-expo.com/forum_2009/pdfs/day1/11...
(slide 21 onwards)
jamespink said:
RumbleOfThunder said:
"He shared with us an interesting stat, based on the time the engine takes at full throttle in third gear to go from 2,000rpm to maximum longitudinal acceleration - roughly equivalent to maximum torque apparently. In a 458 he says this takes 0.7 seconds, against a claimed 2.1 in a McLaren 650S. For the 488 GTB it's 0.8 seconds"
That's such a meaningless stat!
So you don't think that's an incredibly good way of measuring turbo lag then? Is it that you don't understand the sentence, or that anything with the word "Ferrari" in it us up for ridicule?That's such a meaningless stat!
TWPC said:
Blayney said:
bobberz said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Blayney said:
dgmx5 said:
Blayney said:
The glockenspiel looks like a mansory Enzo. aka ste. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today.
Mr Glickenhaus is by all accounts very wealthy which allows him to do these things. He is also a very keen petrolhead that frequents forums such as PH and indeed contributes.te. Where's the delicacy and have gone from car design? I can't think of a pretty car on sale today. Whilst he should be subject to the same critique as any other car maker, please can we be a bit more respectful in the language and a bit more constructive in what it is you do not like. I do not admire this car as much as his previous creation, but I think it is far removed from being lumped in with Mansory.
It may well be based on the race car but I happen to think all current prototypes in lmp1 and lmp2 are ugly.
I just think that front end looks like an Enzo, also a horrible looking car, with a body kit. The rest of the car does nothing for me.
It's just an opinion that I know some people disagree with and others agree with.
To the post suggesting I am jealous is a bit unfair as I'd forgotten who the guy was and frankly don't care what he does with his money. I can guarantee he doesn't care what I think either. If I had the money to build my own racing car I certainly wouldn't care what was said on a forum I'd be too busy having fun.
That's precisely why "retro" designs are very difficult to make work. Take, for instance, the 1970 Dodge Challenger vs. the modern version. The modern one looks clunky and top-heavy compared to the original. Returning to your question as to what pretty cars there are on sale today, I thought you were being unnecessarily cynical but then tried to list some...
Aston Martins, especially the Rapide
Ferrari 458
Jag F-Type (as already mentioned)
Mazda MX-5 (the new one, not uncontroversial)
It's bloody depressing, isn't it?
I tried to think of some mass market beauties like the Pug 406 coupe and original Audi A8 but they just don't exist. Maybe the new Ford Mondeo...? Maybe not. I think the front of the new VW Passat is very striking but it's not beautiful. Ditto the 3 door Seat Leon.
Hmm
458 not for sale and I don't think it's pretty anyway. 488 I can't remember the details but I seem to remember some off boss.
New mx5 has similar rear light issue to the following f type and the pedestrian impact laws have given it an awkward front end from some angles. I do like it though.
The 406 coupe was a lovely looking thing.
sad61t said:
Looking at the line-up of traditional Morgans in the headline photo. That black Roadster is stunning, so much more to my taste than the rather strange concoction of the new Aero.
I agree, as an already noted Morgan fanboy, complete with tweed cap, beard, and handlebar moustache. I must own one, someday, but I just don't see how. They're so expensive that if I had the money, I'd be more tempted to add a couple more Alfas to my stable, plus a few Lancias.The two other best-looking cars of the show are that RuF and that gorgeous, green McLaren F1 Longtail. I think Mr. Bird should have his PH Card revoked for those comments!
The mahoosive side vents on the 488 GTB seem to detract from an otherwise pleasant design, but I'll wait 'til I see one in-person. The 458 took some time to grow on me, and the Speciale finally made me a believer, so maybe the 488 will grow on me, as well? I always reserve final judgement until I see one in-person. For instance, the LaFerrari is far, far better to look at in-person than in pictures.
As far as new designs from Geneva go, the Vulcan and the Koenigsegg are the clear winners, for me, despite the fact I'll most likely never get to sit in one.
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