RE: Honda Civic Type R - Geneva 2015

[blearyeyedboy]

kambites said:

The closest I've come to a modern car like that is the Swift Sport. I think that's probably my favourite current hot hatch. I can't remember when I actually last saw one on the road.

I saw one being test driven on trade plates today, so hopefully one more!

[*Al*]

Well I hope it sells, my job depends partly on it's success! We are going mass production very soon and personally think they look really great, some people moan about Hondas looking boring and this Type R certainly isn't! Wait until you see one in the flesh and make up your mind.... after a test drive of course.

[SidewaysSi]

I think it looks brilliant, wing and all. If it is fun and fast (not mutually exclusive - see trophy R etc) then it will be even better.

Much as I also would like manufacturers to focus on fun at road speeds, you don't need me to tell you that it's not the way of the world any more. And Honda cannot be seen to be slower than a Seat.

When Honda are on it, they have shown they can build some of the finest road cars on the planet-here's hoping they have succeeded.

[Darsettian]

kambites said:

Every other manufacturer seems to be quite happy to throw their car around the ring without fitting an after-market cage?

Not that I could care in the slightest about 'ring times. All it tells me is that the manufacturer has concentrated on setting the car up for a situation I would never put it in. The very fact that they've published a 'ring time is a huge negative point to my mind.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd March 14:01

I have to say it's perfectly reasonable of Honda to fit a rollcage in an all-out lap attempt – whether their rivals did so or not. I think Walter Rohrl recently alluded* to the danger presented to test or racing drivers of the current crop of road cars around the 'ring because the thresholds (of grip and performance) are now so high. People's lives are worth more than that, in my book at least.

I tend to agree that 'ring times have taken on a disproportionate significance in the PR of new performance-oriented road cars however.

• 'Rohrl says that achieving a record time requires the utmost concentration and commitment, something that could end in disaster if the slightest thing went wrong or a mistake was made.(Source: Drive.com.au)

Edited by Darsettian on Wednesday 4th March 00:26

[otolith]

I think we know what sort of event will eventually put an end to the 'ring cock-measuring.

[Cupramax]

otolith said:

I think we know what sort of event will eventually put an end to the 'ring cock-measuring.

Yep, watching that Type R video, one mistake and someone is going to become one with the scenery in a big way. The fact that hot hatches are matching what a 997 Carrera S was doing a couple of years ago is astounding.

[mp3manager]

SaqibCTR said:

How about a true successor to the CRX? (CRZ doesn't count)

Make it really light, give it a small but charismatic engine, and it doesn't matter if it's a bit slow by today's standards, as long as it's fun to drive!

Nowt wrong with the CRZ, when it's done properly.
But as always, the Japs keep the best cars for themselves.

http://www.goo-net-exchange.com/usedcars/HONDA/CR-...

Edited by mp3manager on Wednesday 4th March 03:27

[robm3]

uncler said:

Jesus wept, look at it! IMO, the standard Civic is one of the worst looking cars for sale in the UK at the moment and adding some (loads) of horrid looking bolt-ons have not done much to salvage it. I know it should all be about how it drives with a car like this and I'm sure it will drive exceptionally well, but how many prospective owners will be able to ignore how it looks?

I agree, the original design doesn't do the 'wings n wheels' look so well. The rear looks a mess in particular.

[robm3]

vz-r_dave said:

As for the new Megane, how much further can you go with FWD and 300hp. I am sure that these cars are at the ceiling of what can be achieved without stripping, caging and slicks (excluding driver and track conditions).

Haha I remember reading the same comment about the circa 200hp 2003 Focus RS.

In ten years someone will post that surely 400hp is the limit of front wheel drive cars and so on and so on...

[Swordman]

7m 50.63s round the nurburgring is pretty quick!

Edited by Swordman on Wednesday 4th March 06:28

[kambites]

Darsettian said:

kambites said:

Every other manufacturer seems to be quite happy to throw their car around the ring without fitting an after-market cage?

Not that I could care in the slightest about 'ring times. All it tells me is that the manufacturer has concentrated on setting the car up for a situation I would never put it in. The very fact that they've published a 'ring time is a huge negative point to my mind.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 3rd March 14:01

I have to say it's perfectly reasonable of Honda to fit a rollcage in an all-out lap attempt – whether their rivals did so or not. I think Walter Rohrl recently alluded* to the danger presented to test or racing drivers of the current crop of road cars around the 'ring because the thresholds (of grip and performance) are now so high. People's lives are worth more than that, in my book at least.

I tend to agree that 'ring times have taken on a disproportionate significance in the PR of new performance-oriented road cars however.

• 'Rohrl says that achieving a record time requires the utmost concentration and commitment, something that could end in disaster if the slightest thing went wrong or a mistake was made.(Source: Drive.com.au)

The problem is, a roll cage can make a car appreciably more rigid and hence significantly improve suspension geometry. Probably less true of modern cars than old ones, but still true none-the-less. Fitting a cage and leaving the rest of the car standard, I could accept because the extra weight would probably compensate for the extra rigidity but fitting a cage and removing other bits to get the weight down to the old level makes the time no more "production car" than the SEAT one, IMO.

[vz-r_dave]

robm3 said:

vz-r_dave said:

As for the new Megane, how much further can you go with FWD and 300hp. I am sure that these cars are at the ceiling of what can be achieved without stripping, caging and slicks (excluding driver and track conditions).

Haha I remember reading the same comment about the circa 200hp 2003 Focus RS.

In ten years someone will post that surely 400hp is the limit of front wheel drive cars and so on and so on...

I am mentioning 300HP and FWD as the ceiling here, not suggesting it is not possible to increase the HP. It is unlikely that Renault et al will increase from 300HP significantly in the near future

[NAS1F]

[davidcharles]

SaqibCTR said:

How about a true successor to the CRX? (CRZ doesn't count)

Make it really light, give it a small but charismatic engine, and it doesn't matter if it's a bit slow by today's standards, as long as it's fun to drive!

whilst i agree, didn't Toyota/Subaru try that tack with the GT86??....and everyone moaned it needed more poooowwwwer and hardly anyone bought it over here.

[Thunder18]

doogz said:

I'm not sure if it's been covered here, or elsewhere on PH, but has anyone watched the video of the ring lap?

The understeer in general looks pretty horrific, but have you seen what they've done with it at the last corner?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9G7N0_M9Rc

Unedited version uploaded today, not sure why the last one was thrown up, but as already stated, the car was not yet full production, so kind of irrelevant...

The fact that Honda mentions roll cage was added for safety and not rigidity was as it said, they never said it didn't help, but we'll see in the summer when the actual production car hits the Ring.

Bare in mind that lap was done almost a year ago and the car most likely will have been fine tuned since then.

[Axionknight]

davidcharles said:

whilst i agree, didn't Toyota/Subaru try that tack with the GT86??....and everyone moaned it needed more poooowwwwer and hardly anyone bought it over here.

Exactly. The purists and enthusiasts might love it, but the average car user? Unlikely. Petrol heads who want such things from a car are a minority, and even then a divided one at that.

[Thunder18]

davidcharles said:

SaqibCTR said:

How about a true successor to the CRX? (CRZ doesn't count)

Make it really light, give it a small but charismatic engine, and it doesn't matter if it's a bit slow by today's standards, as long as it's fun to drive!

whilst i agree, didn't Toyota/Subaru try that tack with the GT86??....and everyone moaned it needed more poooowwwwer and hardly anyone bought it over here.

The CR-Z did have a fine chassis, it was never slated for not having one, power as said was the obvious issue, but late on, you could buy a supercharged one from the factory if you wanted....

[otolith]

kambites said:

The problem is, a roll cage can make a car appreciably more rigid and hence significantly improve suspension geometry. Probably less true of modern cars than old ones, but still true none-the-less. Fitting a cage and leaving the rest of the car standard, I could accept because the extra weight would probably compensate for the extra rigidity but fitting a cage and removing other bits to get the weight down to the old level makes the time no more "production car" than the SEAT one, IMO.

I've seen it claimed that modern cars are already stiff enough for handling purposes, and that the main reason for increasing stiffness is now reduction of NVH. Which makes me wonder how much difference what Honda did to the car would really make, especially given that they have effectively moved mass higher up into the structure.

[Zeegoff]

Ring lap times, all very impressive and all but how is this relevant to my commute? Or bnipping the shops?

[Ali_T]

Cupramax said:

Yep, watching that Type R video, one mistake and someone is going to become one with the scenery in a big way. The fact that hot hatches are matching what a 997 Carrera S was doing a couple of years ago is astounding.

It's more a measure of how much tyre technology has come along. The 'ring has so many high speed corners that a better time can be easily achieved with semi track tyres and Honda have already said they've developed a specific tyre for the Civic which, I assume, is how they set this time. That the tyre will be f**king hopeless on a rainy, cold November B road in Scotland won't have entered into marketing's minds. They just want the record and damn the practicalities.