Top spec 'normal' car vs. entry level 'premium'

[Devil2575]

kambites said:

I strongly suspect most buyers of mainstream cars don't know how many cylinders their car has any more than they know which wheels are driven.

I agree. Also when a car like a 320d has 184 bhp, will do 145 mph and get to 60 in 7.5 seconds, not to mention plenty of mid range grunt why would a typical buyer pay extra for a 6 cylinder engine?

[kambites]

Well "refinement" is the obvious answer. Certainly in the bigger cars which are meant to be luxurious.

[Sheepshanks]

Devil2575 said:

kambites said:

I strongly suspect most buyers of mainstream cars don't know how many cylinders their car has any more than they know which wheels are driven.

I agree. Also when a car like a 320d has 184 bhp, will do 145 mph and get to 60 in 7.5 seconds, not to mention plenty of mid range grunt why would a typical buyer pay extra for a 6 cylinder engine?

All things being equal, more cylinders would be better. But things aren't equal.

Manufacturers are driven to lowest possible emissions by EU rules which penalise them in increasing amounts the more they exceed certain targets.

[st4]

Selmer Mk6 said:

Sorry, I think if you are buying entry level premium, you are buying the badge. Remember the premium brands are looking to gain market share, hence four pot engines.

The premium brands were/are known for their 6 cylinder and V8 engines, not four pots.

Top spec normal for me. Premium to me needs premium engine, 6 or 8 cylinders.

This. I had a C220cdi, lovely car, but the running costs of parts, serviving were galling for what was mechanically a nondescript car, 4pot desiel with an autobox. It was no nicer inside either or comfort wise than a Ford Mondeo, which for the £16k I paid would have got me a much newer Mondeo or for the same age/spec, a much cheaper Mondeo.

If I buy a posh car, its having a clyinder count bigger than 4, and sized no smaller than E/5/A6/XF

Compact execs are a con, cheap nasty interiors and cheap nasty drive trains at really non cheap nasty prices.

Plus with all the snagging lists and potential pitfalls that come with posh german cars, I am really put off by them. You just don't see these big issues on Toyota, Honda or even Volvo/Ford models. VAG, BMW, Merc all have chocolate engines that cost serious money to fix.

Edited by st4 on Saturday 7th March 12:24

[st4]

Devil2575 said:

I agree. Also when a car like a 320d has 184 bhp, will do 145 mph and get to 60 in 7.5 seconds, not to mention plenty of mid range grunt why would a typical buyer pay extra for a 6 cylinder engine?

To avoid that foul clatter, clatter and vibrating steering wheel you get at idle with 4pot diesels.

[Claudia Skies]

st4 said:

Selmer Mk6 said:

Sorry, I think if you are buying entry level premium, you are buying the badge.

This. I had a C220cdi, lovely car, but the running costs....

At the bottom of the range you still get all the design and engineering that goes into the expensive models but without paying big money for "added value" toys which cost the manufacturer almost nothing yet hike up the retail price. Bear in mind that most of the dealer/manufacturer profit is in the options list.

Great value at the bottom of the ranges.

[st4]

Claudia Skies said:

At the bottom of the range you still get all the design and engineering that goes into the expensive models but without paying big money for "added value" toys which cost the manufacturer almost nothing yet hike up the retail price. Bear in mind that most of the dealer/manufacturer profit is in the options list.

Great value at the bottom of the ranges.

It was a noisy, hard riding and cramped uncomfortable car. A bottom spec E class is a lovely thing, a bottom spec c, or even top spec c class really isn't. (having driven both C 220 and c350 models).

A 5 series is nice, but the 4 banger engine ruins the car, it needs a six, my mate has one, nice car, ruined by the engine. £40k for a car with a 4pot engine is taking the pish....

[Sheepshanks]

st4 said:

This. I had a C220cdi, lovely car, but the running costs of parts, serviving were galling for what was mechanically a nondescript car, 4pot desiel with an autobox. It was no nicer inside either or comfort wise than a Ford Mondeo, which for the £16k I paid would have got me a much newer Mondeo or for the same age/spec, a much cheaper Mondeo.

I had years of top spec rep-mobiles, but when I opted out I bought a nearly-new Merc. I went to buy a C220CDi but it had sold so I ended up with C270CDi which (touch wood) I couldn't be happier with. I'm amazed at your comments - sure, the climate and elec memory seats in my Peugeot 406 Exec worked better, and the Mondeo had better body control, but, overall, the Merc, a facelift W203, is a cut above. I was scared of the service and maint costs, but it'll run 18K between services, and a lot of stuff only needs doing every 4 yrs. My dealer has always been happy to do a deal on servicing - although I sense this is changing as MB really wants everyone on ServiceCare.

There's "hidden" engineering details in the Merc which aren't always obvious. Stuff like, the Peugeot and the Merc were both estates and in mucky weather after 100 miles you couldn't see out of any of the side windows in the Peugeot - I had to carry stuff to clean them. The Merc's stay perfectly clean.

[st4]

Sheepshanks said:

I had years of top spec rep-mobiles, but when I opted out I bought a nearly-new Merc. I went to buy a C220CDi but it had sold so I ended up with C270CDi which (touch wood) I couldn't be happier with. I'm amazed at your comments - sure, the climate and elec memory seats in my Peugeot 406 Exec worked better, and the Mondeo had better body control, but, overall, the Merc, a facelift W203, is a cut above. I was scared of the service and maint costs, but it'll run 18K between services, and a lot of stuff only needs doing every 4 yrs. My dealer has always been happy to do a deal on servicing - although I sense this is changing as MB really wants everyone on ServiceCare.

There's "hidden" engineering details in the Merc which aren't always obvious. Stuff like, the Peugeot and the Merc were both estates and in mucky weather after 100 miles you couldn't see out of any of the side windows in the Peugeot - I had to carry stuff to clean them. The Merc's stay perfectly clean.

I had the 204 estate, it got mucky quickly at the back.

Overall the plasticy interior, naff ride and naff noisy engine (it was utterly reliable, like a Jap car) put me off paying really what was a lot of money for a small car

[Sheepshanks]

st4 said:

I had the 204 estate, it got mucky quickly at the back.

Overall the plasticy interior, naff ride and naff noisy engine (it was utterly reliable, like a Jap car) put me off paying really what was a lot of money for a small car

I must admit I see nothing in any current car that makes me want to change mine, but it's getting almost ridiculously old now.

[Claudia Skies]

st4 said:

A bottom spec c, or even top spec c class really isn't.....

Apart from the fact they get rave reviews in the press and are selling like hot cakes, that is!!

[Hasbeen]

I have never been able to understand anyone buying a $20,000 car, but paying $30,000 because it has a bit of bling thrown in. No matter how much stuff you load in it, it is still an overpriced $20,000 car.

[MC Bodge]

Devil2575 said:

I agree. Also when a car like a 320d has 184 bhp, will do 145 mph and get to 60 in 7.5 seconds, not to mention plenty of mid range grunt why would a typical buyer pay extra for a 6 cylinder engine?

Exactly. More performance than anybody needs and more than most want, with favourable tax implications.

[MC Bodge]

st4 said:

To avoid that foul clatter, clatter and vibrating steering wheel you get at idle with 4pot diesels.

But, back in the real world, not really any hardship whatsoever.

I'm not keen on the soot emissions though, and I do have a diesel for longer journeys...

[st4]

MC Bodge said:

But, back in the real world, not really any hardship whatsoever.

I'm not keen on the soot emissions though, and I do have a diesel for longer journeys...

That is the real world of 4pot diesels, foul refinement. Its tolerable in cheap cars, but in a £40k BMW a joke of epic proportions. A van engine, in a luxury car.

[Hoofy]

Tis a good question. Thing is, I prefer fewer toys as that means fewer things to go wrong. I'd also prefer a more powerful engine.

[Devil2575]

kambites said:

Well "refinement" is the obvious answer. Certainly in the bigger cars which are meant to be luxurious.

But is a 520d really not refined? These days O suggest you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between a diesel and petrol BMW from the passenger seat.

[Devil2575]

st4 said:

To avoid that foul clatter, clatter and vibrating steering wheel you get at idle with 4pot diesels.

I think you're about 20 years out of date.

[allergictocheese]

The BMW 20d is pokey in the 1 Series, adequate in the 3 and labouring in the 5. I'd want the bigger engine for 5 touring.

I've just been looking at cars same as the OP, although an estate isn't necessary for me.

Looked at the 3, 5 and the Evoque.

Went for a 320d auto Msport in the end with a few options for £415 p/m with £1k down (4 yr PCP). Standard spec is leather, business nav, bluetooth phone and streaming audio, cruise with auto braking, auto lights/wipers and parking sensors. It's hardly poverty spec, although I'm not generally bothered by gadgets in cars.

I could probably have leased it for £14.99 per month etc etc etc, however things might be changing in a financial circumstances and I don't want tying into a lease.

[anonymous-user]

Devil2575 said:

kambites said:

Well "refinement" is the obvious answer. Certainly in the bigger cars which are meant to be luxurious.

But is a 520d really not refined? These days O suggest you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference between a diesel and petrol BMW from the passenger seat.

I've been reading that for 10+ years in the press "you'd be hard pressed to tell what fuel it uses" and it's no more true now than it was 10 years ago. Perhaps I have bat ears but even in a 7 series I can quite clearly hear the engine in a diesel and I can quite clearly hear that it IS a diesel engine too. The V6 Diesel in a Jaguar is a fantastically refined thing for a diesel, and the noise when pressing on is actually quite nice, but you'd have to have beans in your ears or in your head to not know that it's a diesel.

Whether or not that's an issue for you is a different matter. I would find it very difficult to accept the harshness of a 4 pot diesel engine in a £40k car, far from perfect in a £30k car and a perfectly sensible compromise in a £20k car. I do find it very strange that so many people are willing to tolerate the noise and vibration when they do such tiny mileages that they must save a couple of hundred quid a year - even my old mum as refused to have another diesel as she cannot stick the noise in the little hatchbacks she drives.