Car vs Bike with a difference
Discussion
ZX10R NIN said:
Most people will agree that a 16k 1000cc Sportsbike bought from a showroom will pretty much destroy 99% of road cars but my question is how small a CC bike could hold off a V8 M3 C63 etc I reckon something like a ZXR400 on modern rubber & a suspension refresh would do the job around a track (Cadwell) & in a drag race.
What do you reckon?
The other leveller is the ability to ride fast versus driving fast. For the majority, driving fast is so much easier. What do you reckon?
Looking at the video against the MC12. I can achieve higher speeds than the Ducati around Cadwell on my bike, although I'm convinced I'd be faster in the car. In a straight line (for me) bike every time.
You'll need a 600/750cc for top end on a drag race - although depends on distance measured
Had a naughty race off the lights once on my old XJ550 (28 years old at the time, about 55bhp) with a new at the time BMW M3 (not sure what exact model, first one with a V8. Around 400bhp?)
He took off quicker than me and stayed in front, but the bike kept up remarkably well.
Over about half a mile until the road ran out I was never more than a car length or so behind.
Not sure how helpful this is, but the OP's question just reminded me...
He took off quicker than me and stayed in front, but the bike kept up remarkably well.
Over about half a mile until the road ran out I was never more than a car length or so behind.
Not sure how helpful this is, but the OP's question just reminded me...
Dempsey1971 said:
I used to leave suprecars for dead on my trip to London on my old Aprilla RS250
Mind you, that was going through traffic on the A4 towards Hammersmith. The RS250 (or any bike without paniers) is king in this situation.
Round a track, probably not so much, but I know who will be having the most fun!!
I'd forgotten about 250's now they were really fast great corner speed & still properly quick I think an RS250 would actually be quicker than the ZXR400 I first mentioned.Mind you, that was going through traffic on the A4 towards Hammersmith. The RS250 (or any bike without paniers) is king in this situation.
Round a track, probably not so much, but I know who will be having the most fun!!
ZX10R NIN said:
RobM77 said:
Ah, the typical biker's yardstick of a fast car, a big heavy four door saloon with all the toys 
Seriously though, for an E92 M3 or C63 AMG I agree with you, I think a well set up 400 would just about do it on a twisty circuit, or at somewhere more power based an R6 or similar might be needed.
Okay what would you say would be a good example of a typically fast car, for example an R6 could cope a Caterham around a track, but I think a drag race between a 600cc & a Caterham would be interesting.Seriously though, for an E92 M3 or C63 AMG I agree with you, I think a well set up 400 would just about do it on a twisty circuit, or at somewhere more power based an R6 or similar might be needed.
As I said at the start of the post I'm not including 1000cc fours & 1200cc twins because then you need P1's 918 etc so what I'm trying to see is what smaller CC bikes could compete with Carrera 2's Golf R's Jag F Types in a drag race around a track etc.
I'm using these cars as there are more of these types of car on the roads.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Wednesday 4th March 15:34
. I've driven an E92 M3, and several AMG Mercs, and they're luxury family cars with a mild turn of speed; bloody good ones (esp the M3: the best everyday family car I've ever driven), but firmly comfy road cars first and foremost and not really that quick either. Yes, a 400 sportsbike would be faster, but it'd still be lapping after an hour or two, by which time the M3 or C63 would be smoking their brakes and groaning under the pressure flashing service lights at you and invalidating their warranties by dial up modem - it's a very odd comparison. The F Type or Golf R?! Are you serious?!I'm more than happy to compare these two wildly different genres of machines though, and as I said in my first post, just pick a sports bike, even a 400, and it'd run rings around those sorts of cars. How about a Formula Ford, with none of the downforce you say is unfair and with a humble Fiesta engine, they'll lap a UK circuit quicker than pretty much any road bike, and pretty close to a full on BSB too. Up a level to Formula Renault, with a humble Clio engine, and you'll be quicker than the fastest road bikes 0-100 (4.8s IIRC), and massively faster round a track, but then we're into downforce. You'd be right to protest, as it's an unfair comparison between road and track machines, but it's probably more relevant than a VW Golf vs an R6 or an M3 vs a sports 400. I'm happy to answer your question though and I agree - a 400 would probably do it.
RobM77 said:
The trouble with the comparison is that 99% of cars, even so called 'performance' cars are designed for coffee slurping businessmen, whereas most sports bikes, even mild ones, are designed and engineered with the remit of a Radical, 2-Eleven, Ariel Atom, BAC Mono etc - race bred tech, weekend fun and track days, with proper enthusiasts in mind - most owners will be on bike forums, read magazines, attend track days and go on Sunday rides with their mates - try finding M3 owners who do that - most are in their dressing gowns resting a paper on their bellies on a Sunday . I've driven an E92 M3, and several AMG Mercs, and they're luxury family cars with a mild turn of speed; bloody good ones (esp the M3: the best everyday family car I've ever driven), but firmly comfy road cars first and foremost and not really that quick either. Yes, a 400 sportsbike would be faster, but it'd still be lapping after an hour or two, by which time the M3 or C63 would be smoking their brakes and groaning under the pressure flashing service lights at you and invalidating their warranties by dial up modem - it's a very odd comparison. The F Type or Golf R?! Are you serious?!
I'm more than happy to compare these two wildly different genres of machines though, and as I said in my first post, just pick a sports bike, even a 400, and it'd run rings around those sorts of cars. How about a Formula Ford, with none of the downforce you say is unfair and with a humble Fiesta engine, they'll lap a UK circuit quicker than pretty much any road bike, and pretty close to a full on BSB too. Up a level to Formula Renault, with a humble Clio engine, and you'll be quicker than the fastest road bikes 0-100 (4.8s IIRC), and massively faster round a track, but then we're into downforce. You'd be right to protest, as it's an unfair comparison between road and track machines, but it's probably more relevant than a VW Golf vs an R6 or an M3 vs a sports 400. I'm happy to answer your question though and I agree - a 400 would probably do it.
To be honest I thought a ZXR400 would struggle to beat a E92 M3 Round a circuit(on a best of Three timed Laps) or it'd just lose out as for the drag race I think the car wins so would a Fazer vs M3 be a fairer comparison?. I've driven an E92 M3, and several AMG Mercs, and they're luxury family cars with a mild turn of speed; bloody good ones (esp the M3: the best everyday family car I've ever driven), but firmly comfy road cars first and foremost and not really that quick either. Yes, a 400 sportsbike would be faster, but it'd still be lapping after an hour or two, by which time the M3 or C63 would be smoking their brakes and groaning under the pressure flashing service lights at you and invalidating their warranties by dial up modem - it's a very odd comparison. The F Type or Golf R?! Are you serious?!I'm more than happy to compare these two wildly different genres of machines though, and as I said in my first post, just pick a sports bike, even a 400, and it'd run rings around those sorts of cars. How about a Formula Ford, with none of the downforce you say is unfair and with a humble Fiesta engine, they'll lap a UK circuit quicker than pretty much any road bike, and pretty close to a full on BSB too. Up a level to Formula Renault, with a humble Clio engine, and you'll be quicker than the fastest road bikes 0-100 (4.8s IIRC), and massively faster round a track, but then we're into downforce. You'd be right to protest, as it's an unfair comparison between road and track machines, but it's probably more relevant than a VW Golf vs an R6 or an M3 vs a sports 400. I'm happy to answer your question though and I agree - a 400 would probably do it.
With race cars the minute you add downforce you add speed even a Formula Ford generates a small amount of downforce along with it's light weight four contact patches etc.
So would a Fazer be beaten by a A45 or would it need to be a C63? Over the Two disciplines of a Drag Race & Lap Times.
KTM390RC to be Beaten by A Fiesta ST or would it need to be a Focus ST?
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 5th March 09:22
RobM77 said:
The trouble with the comparison is that 99% of cars, even so called 'performance' cars are designed for coffee slurping businessmen, whereas most sports bikes, even mild ones, are designed and engineered with the remit of a Radical, 2-Eleven, Ariel Atom, BAC Mono etc - race bred tech, weekend fun and track days, with proper enthusiasts in mind - most owners will be on bike forums, read magazines, attend track days and go on Sunday rides with their mates - try finding M3 owners who do that - most are in their dressing gowns resting a paper on their bellies on a Sunday . I've driven an E92 M3, and several AMG Mercs, and they're luxury family cars with a mild turn of speed; bloody good ones (esp the M3: the best everyday family car I've ever driven), but firmly comfy road cars first and foremost and not really that quick either. Yes, a 400 sportsbike would be faster, but it'd still be lapping after an hour or two, by which time the M3 or C63 would be smoking their brakes and groaning under the pressure flashing service lights at you and invalidating their warranties by dial up modem - it's a very odd comparison. The F Type or Golf R?! Are you serious?!
I'm more than happy to compare these two wildly different genres of machines though, and as I said in my first post, just pick a sports bike, even a 400, and it'd run rings around those sorts of cars. How about a Formula Ford, with none of the downforce you say is unfair and with a humble Fiesta engine, they'll lap a UK circuit quicker than pretty much any road bike, and pretty close to a full on BSB too. Up a level to Formula Renault, with a humble Clio engine, and you'll be quicker than the fastest road bikes 0-100 (4.8s IIRC), and massively faster round a track, but then we're into downforce. You'd be right to protest, as it's an unfair comparison between road and track machines, but it's probably more relevant than a VW Golf vs an R6 or an M3 vs a sports 400. I'm happy to answer your question though and I agree - a 400 would probably do it.
To be honest I thought a ZXR400 would struggle to beat a E92 M3 Round a circuit(on a best of Three timed Laps) or it'd just lose out as for the drag race I think the car wins so would a Fazer vs M3 be a fairer comparison?. I've driven an E92 M3, and several AMG Mercs, and they're luxury family cars with a mild turn of speed; bloody good ones (esp the M3: the best everyday family car I've ever driven), but firmly comfy road cars first and foremost and not really that quick either. Yes, a 400 sportsbike would be faster, but it'd still be lapping after an hour or two, by which time the M3 or C63 would be smoking their brakes and groaning under the pressure flashing service lights at you and invalidating their warranties by dial up modem - it's a very odd comparison. The F Type or Golf R?! Are you serious?!I'm more than happy to compare these two wildly different genres of machines though, and as I said in my first post, just pick a sports bike, even a 400, and it'd run rings around those sorts of cars. How about a Formula Ford, with none of the downforce you say is unfair and with a humble Fiesta engine, they'll lap a UK circuit quicker than pretty much any road bike, and pretty close to a full on BSB too. Up a level to Formula Renault, with a humble Clio engine, and you'll be quicker than the fastest road bikes 0-100 (4.8s IIRC), and massively faster round a track, but then we're into downforce. You'd be right to protest, as it's an unfair comparison between road and track machines, but it's probably more relevant than a VW Golf vs an R6 or an M3 vs a sports 400. I'm happy to answer your question though and I agree - a 400 would probably do it.
With race cars the minute you add downforce you add speed even a Formula Ford generates a small amount of downforce along with it's light weight four contact patches etc.
So would a Fazer be beaten by a A45 or would it need to be a C63? Over the Two disciplines of a Drag Race & Lap Times.
KTM390RC to be Beaten by A Fiesta ST or would it need to be a Focus ST? (I think the RC loses to the Fiesta)
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 5th March 09:23
JonnyBel said:
Hmmm but would a speed boat hold off a propella plane?
What a mad thread this is haha
Surely to make that fair the speed boat needs to have a mini bar and seating for ten people? What a mad thread this is haha
My point exactly
In ZX's defence, it is an interesting point of discussion, although as you say fairly meaningless because whilst cars are always faster in lap times ultimately (the outright lap record at every circuit in the world where both cars and bikes run is always held by a car), the majority of road cars are big heavy things where everything seems to happen in slow motion and yes, 99.9% of those would be beaten by 99.9% of bikes.
Well, some big engine diesel saloons were giving my 650 bandit (not the fastest bike in the world, or even the engine class) trouble off roundabouts onto DC. I'd expect an M3 with foot to the floor to be a lot quicker, but then so would a race rep 600 bike. Nothing much has really kept up with my 750 shiver which is a fair bit quicker when revved than the bandit was. Nothing at all in any way shape or form kept up with my 1200 BMW in a straight line (although there are proper full-on super cars that could, according to the stats).
All tests completed somewhere within reasonable real-life speeds. I'm happy to let anyone who wants to push towards 100mph or above disappear off into the distance. The bikes' BHPs were 60-odd, 90-odd and 160-odd respectively. So my general feeling is, if you want to be sure of showing a clean pair of heels to 99.99% of traffic, aim for about 100 brake.
Throw corners into the question and the answer comes down almost entirely to the relative skills of driver and rider.
All tests completed somewhere within reasonable real-life speeds. I'm happy to let anyone who wants to push towards 100mph or above disappear off into the distance. The bikes' BHPs were 60-odd, 90-odd and 160-odd respectively. So my general feeling is, if you want to be sure of showing a clean pair of heels to 99.99% of traffic, aim for about 100 brake.
Throw corners into the question and the answer comes down almost entirely to the relative skills of driver and rider.
ZX10R NIN said:
How cool did the Single Side Swingarm look on the NSR's
I thought that the single sided swing arm came on the vfr/rvf400 and ducatis??? The reason I mentioned the nsr and in particular the mc23 it came with these card things that you put into the ecu to change maps for road track etc also being a 2 stroke 250 it was light nimble and had the power of a 4 stroke 500 and of course the smell... campermanj said:
I thought that the single sided swing arm came on the vfr/rvf400 and ducatis??? The reason I mentioned the nsr and in particular the mc23 it came with these card things that you put into the ecu to change maps for road track etc also being a 2 stroke 250 it was light nimble and had the power of a 4 stroke 500 and of course the smell...
I think it was on the NSR 250 first, oh yes the card thing didn't it change the ignition timing?
So do you think that one of these would be able to keep a Fiesta ST around a race track?
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 5th March 16:55
thatdude said:
Bikes go fast on the straight bits
but cars have four tyres on four wheels with four brakes. So cars have the possibility of upsetting a bike if the bike cant stretch its legs
See how quickly an F1 car is against a MotoGP bike, for example. Actually, now I think about it, how does e.g. a GT race car (Ferrari, Porsche etc) compare against a MotoGP bike and maybe a WSBK bike?
In 2003, at Barcelona, the pole time for GT cars was 1.40.9, the same year, the MotoGP pole was 3 seconds slower.but cars have four tyres on four wheels with four brakes. So cars have the possibility of upsetting a bike if the bike cant stretch its legs
See how quickly an F1 car is against a MotoGP bike, for example. Actually, now I think about it, how does e.g. a GT race car (Ferrari, Porsche etc) compare against a MotoGP bike and maybe a WSBK bike?
Interesting that modded road cars outperform bikes designed purely for racing.
Kimi holds the lap record there with a 1.21.7
Edited by SlipStream77 on Thursday 5th March 18:02
SlipStream77 said:
thatdude said:
Bikes go fast on the straight bits
but cars have four tyres on four wheels with four brakes. So cars have the possibility of upsetting a bike if the bike cant stretch its legs
See how quickly an F1 car is against a MotoGP bike, for example. Actually, now I think about it, how does e.g. a GT race car (Ferrari, Porsche etc) compare against a MotoGP bike and maybe a WSBK bike?
In 2003, at Barcelona, the pole time for GT cars was 1.40.9, the same year, the MotoGP pole was 3 seconds slower.but cars have four tyres on four wheels with four brakes. So cars have the possibility of upsetting a bike if the bike cant stretch its legs
See how quickly an F1 car is against a MotoGP bike, for example. Actually, now I think about it, how does e.g. a GT race car (Ferrari, Porsche etc) compare against a MotoGP bike and maybe a WSBK bike?
Interesting that modded road cars outperform bikes designed purely for racing.
Kimi holds the lap record there with a 1.21.7
Edited by SlipStream77 on Thursday 5th March 18:02
It's simple physics and the case at most circuits. Formula Renault 2.0 for example, with several examples now available for around £14k following the championships' demise in the UK, have a lap record at Barcelona of 1m42s, despite being 500kg and 210bhp (420bhp/tonne), vs 150kg and 240bhp (1600bhp/tonne) for a Moto GP bike. If you account for a 65kg rider/driver that's 371 & 1116bhp/tonne.FRenault 3.5 with 800bhp/tonne, so half that of the Moto GP bike, are in the 1min28s... It really is an open and shut case. Even if you remove the downforce and add in road legal tyres, recent Formula Fords with Fiesta engines are right up there with bike lap times at most UK circuits, so just imagine if they had 200 or 300bhp! The car concept is just quicker basically; it's only the requirements that road car buyers have like air con, leather seats, comfy ride etc that makes them slower than sports bikes, which are pretty hardcore because that's what those buyers want. If you concentrate on performance, four wheels with a low CofG is pretty unbeatable. That's not to say riding a bike isn't huge fun of course - I'd probably rather race a historic V8 sports car than a Radical - it's not all about speed.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 5th March 18:49
ZX10R NIN said:
I think it was on the NSR 250 first, oh yes the card thing didn't it change the ignition timing?
So do you think that one of these would be able to keep a Fiesta ST around a race track?
I think this would absolutely finish quite a bit ahead of a fiesta st over a lap of a track the last time I rode one (about 15 years ago now!!!) it was like riding a bmx bike and just inspired confidence. So do you think that one of these would be able to keep a Fiesta ST around a race track?
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Thursday 5th March 16:55
If I was going to buy a toy bike now it would almost definitely be one of these, an rs250 or an rvf400
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