Ranking Hot Hatches / Small Coupes by Driving Fun
Discussion
jcelee said:
The R53 Cooper S is certainly intriguing but they seem to be going up in price?! (is £5k enough to get a good one anymore?) Is this because the engines are less chocolate than the later model? Maybe I should try to try an EP3 too, the commentary about numbness worry me but I absolutely loved my old 1989 CRX 1.6i-16 back in the day!
R53s aren't going up to my knowledge, although it would suit me if they are. 
I'd certainly go for one over an early turbocharged car. Post facelift cars with lowish mileage at dealers are advertised for delusional money, look at for real world pricing.
On the whole very reliable and fun car, respond well to cheap mods.
Expect 29mpg average or worse. Can get 38mpg on an A road run if you are careful.
172 : hilarious everywhere, all the time. Non cup is fine.
V2 impreza sti type-ra (mild tune to 310bhp) : the ra part is important cos you get a short ratio box and 60 is dispatched half a second faster than a normal sti. a full bore launch is terrifying, it never, ever gets boring.they really get under your skin too- everything is either just right or just wrong enough to be charming.
Megane 225 cup: mine has lot more power than standard an lsd and is on fancy springs. find a windy road and all the hype makes sense, its not a hooligan like the clio, its a machine for traversing stretches of tarmac very swiftly indeed.
Fwiw ive had an mx5 and it was less fun than all of the above
V2 impreza sti type-ra (mild tune to 310bhp) : the ra part is important cos you get a short ratio box and 60 is dispatched half a second faster than a normal sti. a full bore launch is terrifying, it never, ever gets boring.they really get under your skin too- everything is either just right or just wrong enough to be charming.
Megane 225 cup: mine has lot more power than standard an lsd and is on fancy springs. find a windy road and all the hype makes sense, its not a hooligan like the clio, its a machine for traversing stretches of tarmac very swiftly indeed.
Fwiw ive had an mx5 and it was less fun than all of the above
Thanks very much guys for lots of real world experience. I am intrigued by the amount of love shown for the EP3 Type R. Also interested in the feedback on 172/182, too many of the owners reviews online are following very short periods of ownership - they do sound very old school responsive that I like!
I'll not rule out other 4 seaters (saloons etc) but have scratched lots of itches already and want something that works well as moderately low speeds.
I'll not rule out other 4 seaters (saloons etc) but have scratched lots of itches already and want something that works well as moderately low speeds.
From what your budget and needs I would say Clio Trophy or DC2 Integra.
Owned both, fantastic cars!
The DC2 was more of an occasion to drive and did feel 'special' when you got in and started it.
Each had their pros and cons over the other. Both in my ownership were very reliable with the Trophy needing only servicing and consumables. The DC2 needed a few bits fettling to keep it driving as it should (refurbishment work on the suspension etc). If you do consider a Trophy check the SACHS dampers have been refurbished!
Owned both, fantastic cars!
The DC2 was more of an occasion to drive and did feel 'special' when you got in and started it.
Each had their pros and cons over the other. Both in my ownership were very reliable with the Trophy needing only servicing and consumables. The DC2 needed a few bits fettling to keep it driving as it should (refurbishment work on the suspension etc). If you do consider a Trophy check the SACHS dampers have been refurbished!
Given that the original poster has given permission above for saloons.
E39 M5 ( the 5.0 NA one)
Awesome bit of kit. Looks like a boring old "dads car" and can play that role, but on the right roads you'd need a genuine supercar to leave it behind. £15k would buy you an absolute minter, and if you kept the miles reasonable it would'nt lose a lot over 2 or 3 years.
Golf Gti mk2
Great great fun little car. Only 112 bhp but a hoot to drive. All of the modern hot hatches are way quicker and more able but these cars are Fun.
C36 AMG
Looks like a C180. Has a 3.6 litre straight six and 280 brake. Auto box only might be a bit of a damper.
Subaru Imprezza turbo ( the original one)
On the right day on the right road a car with 208 bhp has no right to be this fast or this much fun. You just laugh out loud sometimes when you're driving it. They are that good......but when you just want to get from A to B they are a royal pain in the arse. Loud, firm, incredibly badly finished, etc. if it was just as a toy I'd reccomend but not as a family wagon
Golf Gti mk1
As a garage queen / investment maybe... As a drivers car for every day, not suitable
E39 M5 ( the 5.0 NA one)
Awesome bit of kit. Looks like a boring old "dads car" and can play that role, but on the right roads you'd need a genuine supercar to leave it behind. £15k would buy you an absolute minter, and if you kept the miles reasonable it would'nt lose a lot over 2 or 3 years.
Golf Gti mk2
Great great fun little car. Only 112 bhp but a hoot to drive. All of the modern hot hatches are way quicker and more able but these cars are Fun.
C36 AMG
Looks like a C180. Has a 3.6 litre straight six and 280 brake. Auto box only might be a bit of a damper.
Subaru Imprezza turbo ( the original one)
On the right day on the right road a car with 208 bhp has no right to be this fast or this much fun. You just laugh out loud sometimes when you're driving it. They are that good......but when you just want to get from A to B they are a royal pain in the arse. Loud, firm, incredibly badly finished, etc. if it was just as a toy I'd reccomend but not as a family wagon
Golf Gti mk1
As a garage queen / investment maybe... As a drivers car for every day, not suitable
R2T2 said:
Abarth Grande Punto?
Great little cars, handle really well still look fresh and can be had for around 5.
This and the %00 Abarth are very underrated IMO, great fun little cars, unable too. Great little cars, handle really well still look fresh and can be had for around 5.
If we're talking Type R's its gotta be an Integra in either DC2 or DC5 flavour. Personally I'd go for DC5, 90% of the DC2 but much easier to live with/more modern/safer etc.
Megane 225 a good shout, especially with a few choice additions from the more extreme versions that followed.
Audi B5 S4 in budget?
Left field choice; BMW 123d, or even better, that Alpina that used the engine from that in a £ series body, I forget the name.
Let us know how it goes.
theguvernor said:
Very left field suggestion, but talking from personal experience, Smart Forfour Brabus. 180BHP. (Roughly).
Claimed 0-60 figures of around 6.5secs.
Cheap insurance (MSM specialist Smart), 1.5 Turbo, full leather, A/C etc.
You'd get a decent low mileage one well under £5,000.
Very under-rated, also unique, only 250 or so of them sold in the UK.
Not driven but I think they're pretty cool so I +1 this idea. Claimed 0-60 figures of around 6.5secs.
Cheap insurance (MSM specialist Smart), 1.5 Turbo, full leather, A/C etc.
You'd get a decent low mileage one well under £5,000.
Very under-rated, also unique, only 250 or so of them sold in the UK.
Currently driving a 120D 'Sport' and it's a pretty decent handling car, just sounds like s
t and not the fastest thing ever. One of those 135i coupes would be a good shout.billy939 said:
For cars that I have owned for fun that fit your criteria:
1. Civic Type R EP3
Best engine and gearbox, really responds well to being driven hard. Steering is a little vague to begin with but is very quickly adjusted to. Handling is excellent, it feels very 'light on it's feet' whilst managing to feel grippy at the same time.
Hugely grin inducing on a blast and in everyday driving it can very civilised too. Big boot, loads of space for 2 kids etc.
2. Mini Cooper S R53
Great noise from the charger, feels very small and is good fun to chuck around tighter bends. Grip is possibly a little better that the Civic but the ride is far less forgiving. Space is minimal and for 2 kids could be a problem but if you like the way the interior is laid out then it is a nice place to be, wasn't to my taste really. The fun factor of this car probably outweighed the practically by some way.
3. Clio 182
A good all rounder, not as quick as the Civic or nice sounding as the MCS, but they are great fun to chuck around. Handling is good and very adjustable on the limit. Condition of cars varies hugely and mine wasn't great, build quality and reliability letting it down a fair bit along with a lot of other niggly issues.
As a daily they are well equipped with Cruise, Climate etc, the only issue being the electrics for these things can go wrong. A little more spacious than Mini but not my much and the interior is a bit cheap looking in comparison to the others.
4. Ford Puma Millennium
The slowest of the selection but very good in it's own right. Handling is brilliant and at lower speeds probably the most fun. Engine sounds good and definitely feels every bit as powerful as you would expect from 125bhp. Gearbox has a very nice feel but the ratios are very long. Probably the cheapest to buy and maintain but it will show in the quality. The Millennium edition has great heated leather Recaros if you can put up with yellow paint? :P I would say this car is a class below the others, but it is due to it being so good in it's own field that is should be considered.
A Wildcard choice would be a 106 Gti? Easily the most fun to drive but lets itself down with saftey for carrying children and they are getting difficult to find in good condition.
Hope this was of some use?
I personally prefer the Honda but they are all very good so you wouldn't go far wrong with any
I've had a couple of the cars mentioned on the thread - agree with the above on the R53 Cooper S having owned one from new for 9 years - although I had the standard 16" alloys on mine rather than the optional 17s plus I switched to non-runflats so i never found the ride bad 1. Civic Type R EP3
Best engine and gearbox, really responds well to being driven hard. Steering is a little vague to begin with but is very quickly adjusted to. Handling is excellent, it feels very 'light on it's feet' whilst managing to feel grippy at the same time.
Hugely grin inducing on a blast and in everyday driving it can very civilised too. Big boot, loads of space for 2 kids etc.
2. Mini Cooper S R53
Great noise from the charger, feels very small and is good fun to chuck around tighter bends. Grip is possibly a little better that the Civic but the ride is far less forgiving. Space is minimal and for 2 kids could be a problem but if you like the way the interior is laid out then it is a nice place to be, wasn't to my taste really. The fun factor of this car probably outweighed the practically by some way.
3. Clio 182
A good all rounder, not as quick as the Civic or nice sounding as the MCS, but they are great fun to chuck around. Handling is good and very adjustable on the limit. Condition of cars varies hugely and mine wasn't great, build quality and reliability letting it down a fair bit along with a lot of other niggly issues.
As a daily they are well equipped with Cruise, Climate etc, the only issue being the electrics for these things can go wrong. A little more spacious than Mini but not my much and the interior is a bit cheap looking in comparison to the others.
4. Ford Puma Millennium
The slowest of the selection but very good in it's own right. Handling is brilliant and at lower speeds probably the most fun. Engine sounds good and definitely feels every bit as powerful as you would expect from 125bhp. Gearbox has a very nice feel but the ratios are very long. Probably the cheapest to buy and maintain but it will show in the quality. The Millennium edition has great heated leather Recaros if you can put up with yellow paint? :P I would say this car is a class below the others, but it is due to it being so good in it's own field that is should be considered.
A Wildcard choice would be a 106 Gti? Easily the most fun to drive but lets itself down with saftey for carrying children and they are getting difficult to find in good condition.
Hope this was of some use?
I personally prefer the Honda but they are all very good so you wouldn't go far wrong with any
The 106/Saxo VTS suggestion is good if you don't want to spend lots of cash and don't want aircon - had a VTS from new for nearly 5 years and for me personally, either the VTS or 106 GTi were more fun than the Puma ( although the Fords have aircon and may have weathered the years better with the exception of rust )
325ti will do the hot hatch thing but is a pretty decent car to cover big distances in as well - went on hols to Italy in it last couple of years with 2 lads under 12 - Mini wouldn't be as great for that without a roofbox
I've only driven the Fiesta ST briefly, not owned one, but for a new car I'd definitely try one as I really liked it - wanted something with 5-doors though and they only do the ST in U.S. with 5 doors
Some of the other suggestions are great cars too, plus I could muddy the waters with some others, saloons that wouldn't lose money but I'm sure you've already got a mental shortlist
Peugeot 106 Rallye S2. Incredible car. Almost unparalleled handling ability for a hot hatch. Make no mistake, these are as pure and tactile a driver's car as any fibreglass, mid-engine sports car. The engine begs for revs, the steering is as much done on the throttle as the wheel and the controls feel magnificent. They're stiff and noisy but full of character and as thrilling as any car I've driven when pointed down a tight, twisty B road. You'll also find fans wherever you go, they're a surprising head turner. When I had mine, I was surprised at how many people wanted to talk about it when in was filling up with petrol or parking up or whatever.
groundcontrol said:
Not driven but I think they're pretty cool so I +1 this idea.
Currently driving a 120D 'Sport' and it's a pretty decent handling car, just sounds like st and not the fastest thing ever. One of those 135i coupes would be a good shout.
I had a 120D M Sport, and always thought that one of those with a decent engine, i.e. 130 or a 135 would be brilliant. Currently driving a 120D 'Sport' and it's a pretty decent handling car, just sounds like s
t and not the fastest thing ever. One of those 135i coupes would be a good shout.130 LE's seem to be holding their value from what I've seen as well, OP try and get a test drive in one.
Baryonyx said:
Peugeot 106 Rallye S2. Incredible car. Almost unparalleled handling ability for a hot hatch. Make no mistake, these are as pure and tactile a driver's car as any fibreglass, mid-engine sports car. The engine begs for revs, the steering is as much done on the throttle as the wheel and the controls feel magnificent. They're stiff and noisy but full of character and as thrilling as any car I've driven when pointed down a tight, twisty B road. You'll also find fans wherever you go, they're a surprising head turner. When I had mine, I was surprised at how many people wanted to talk about it when in was filling up with petrol or parking up or whatever.
This. Or a 205 GTI. I too am a Caterham man and believe me, some of the suggestions on this thread will bore you to tears. They may be fun for most people but if you want agility, feel and fun like you get in a 7, there is a no way something like a Mini or Civic will come close.I also had a DC2 Integra which was great fun but not quite as good as the Pugs for the sorts of things a Caterham does so well.
Seat Cupra R Mk1 270 bhp with a map, brembo brakes, audi TT front suspension, decent interior, handling is neutral not as raw as a Honda type R but more focussed than the contemporary GTI.
It is also usable everyday with a decent boot and space. A subjective view but is still a good-looking car, has aged well.
The running costs are reasonable, major expense is a cambelt change every 5 years or 50000 miles.
It gives a proper old school when the turbo kicks in, and is still quick today.
It is also usable everyday with a decent boot and space. A subjective view but is still a good-looking car, has aged well.
The running costs are reasonable, major expense is a cambelt change every 5 years or 50000 miles.
It gives a proper old school when the turbo kicks in, and is still quick today.
SidewaysSi said:
This. Or a 205 GTI. I too am a Caterham man and believe me, some of the suggestions on this thread will bore you to tears. They may be fun for most people but if you want agility, feel and fun like you get in a 7, there is a no way something like a Mini or Civic will come close.
I also had a DC2 Integra which was great fun but not quite as good as the Pugs for the sorts of things a Caterham does so well.
Plus If you're going to look at 205s, make sure before you buy one that you try, imo, the best one they did, the 309GtiI also had a DC2 Integra which was great fun but not quite as good as the Pugs for the sorts of things a Caterham does so well.
Honda FD2 type r can be had under 15k and will not very likely lose 5k in 2 years.
DC5 integra is a great car. very reliable, cheap running costs, pretty fast, big boot. And pleanty of space for two kids. Better package than the DC2 imo.
DC2 is a great weekend toy if thats what your after, more fun that teh DC5 but alittle long in the tooth now. Starting to need lots of things replacing to keep them in good condition.
BMW 130i - alittle more grown up than the above but has a very sweet smooth engine, good handling, mine was very reliable and a great all round car that the other half had ease with driving on the odd occasion.
Megane R26 - like a lower quality DC5 and not as fun.
DC5 integra is a great car. very reliable, cheap running costs, pretty fast, big boot. And pleanty of space for two kids. Better package than the DC2 imo.
DC2 is a great weekend toy if thats what your after, more fun that teh DC5 but alittle long in the tooth now. Starting to need lots of things replacing to keep them in good condition.
BMW 130i - alittle more grown up than the above but has a very sweet smooth engine, good handling, mine was very reliable and a great all round car that the other half had ease with driving on the odd occasion.
Megane R26 - like a lower quality DC5 and not as fun.
Edited by sinbad666 on Thursday 5th March 09:54
Thanks again guys, lots of things to ponder ahead of actually getting my work parking permit back - hopefully any day now. This will 99% be a commuting car after all.
Still trying to get a test drive in a Fiesta ST - my local dealer is still awaiting one of their manger's cars coming into stock. Then to try everything else back to back with this. I definitely need to try an EP3 Civic, 182 Clio-pref. Trophy (the other Frenchies may be dynamically brilliant but I just fear they will be too old to not be tinkerers cars at best) and possibly DC5, DC2 and 325ti. If any of you are East Dorset based and willing to show me around any of these cars (you driving obviously) then that would be great, I can even bring the Caterham along
Still trying to get a test drive in a Fiesta ST - my local dealer is still awaiting one of their manger's cars coming into stock. Then to try everything else back to back with this. I definitely need to try an EP3 Civic, 182 Clio-pref. Trophy (the other Frenchies may be dynamically brilliant but I just fear they will be too old to not be tinkerers cars at best) and possibly DC5, DC2 and 325ti. If any of you are East Dorset based and willing to show me around any of these cars (you driving obviously) then that would be great, I can even bring the Caterham along
Puma Racing. Much rarer and more special than most/all cars mentioned. Not the fastest but feels like a proper hot hatch without you looking like a 17 year old driving it.
Step up from that an GT4's and imprezas are hard to beat for fun and performance but still nowhere near as rare and bespoke.
Step up from that an GT4's and imprezas are hard to beat for fun and performance but still nowhere near as rare and bespoke.
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