RE: Lotus - Geneva 2015
Discussion
leglessAlex said:
danp said:
The Boxster is an interesting comparison, also launched in 1996 - 31k then would be 52k now, but they start at 39k. And that's moved from 204bhp to 265bhp, weight about the same iirc.
Lotus website says they start at 31k now for 134bhp and 876kg. (1996 was 118bhp and circa 725kg)
MX5 would be another interesting comparison, but in terms of bang for your buck I don't think Lotus have exactly moved with the times (i.e. providing more bang for less buck)
This is true, cars in general have got cheaper. The MX5 cost £14,249 when it was released in 1990 which is £28,927 in 2014 money. Last year the MX5 started at £18,495! Lotus website says they start at 31k now for 134bhp and 876kg. (1996 was 118bhp and circa 725kg)
MX5 would be another interesting comparison, but in terms of bang for your buck I don't think Lotus have exactly moved with the times (i.e. providing more bang for less buck)
Yes, you generally get more bang for you buck these days but Porsche and Mazda are so much bigger that they can provide this reduction in price. Someone is welcome to check but I'm guessing the likes of Aston Martin haven't seen such a reduction in price over the last 20 years.
ETA: I'm guessing Porsche and other companies have also changed the way they sell cars over the last 20 odd years. The starting price of a Boxster is £39,000 but how many are sold at that price? It seems Porsche now aims to make a lot of profit on options and I wouldn't be surprised if the sale price of a Boxster these days was closer to £45,000.
Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 5th March 13:53
Civpilot said:
Lotus Evora 400 for £70k plus options..... Or Porsche Cayman GT4 for £65k plus options? As much as I like Lotus as a company there isn't even a choice in there.
Caymans - all gone already, if you're not on the list you won't get one. Also try speccing a GT4 with anything useful and you will be in excess of 70K immediately. I've specced one to around 80K without trying.I would really like this to be a dynamic success to give us the chance to have something competitive that's not Pork, and hence don't continually get shafted by pork allocations and the inevitable price hike for immediate second hand matket.
kbf1981 said:
This. A Cayman competes with the Exige V6, which would walk it on a country road. The Evora 400 is vs the 991 C2S which is another 30k after options.
I really hope the Evora and Lotus come good, I'm going to try one to have something different to the normal porkophiles.That said we've got two Caymans already lol an S pdk (wifee) and a well fettled R. Believe me the Exige S does not walk it away from the Cayman R on track or roads.
swisstoni said:
Porsche were lucky enough to have a big brother that could lend them a 4x4 platform on which they built the Cayenne - the biggest selling Porsche.
You do wonder where Lotus would be if they had been owned by someone other than Proton for the last 10 years - possibly the only mass market manufacturer who has lower brand presence and sales in the UK than Lotus do as a niche sports car manufacturer!Civpilot said:
And in Janurary this year Lotus managed to sell 6 of them, just 6
I know the cars are surely good, but how good a car is matters for nothing if the company that makes it can't sell enough to stay in business. Upping the price is not the best thing to do in my opinion if you can't sell loads at the current lower price. It's almost like Danny B is still in charge over there....
A few people have mentioned this "only 6 sold in January" bit. To be fair, the fact that a heavily revised/improved Evora was going to be unveiled in Geneva have been official since about November. So to order an Evora knowing it's about to be replaced by something substantially better would be somewhere between stubborn and perverse. I'm not saying the numbers would have been inthe hundreds, but I'd suggest that many prospective Evora owners have been waiting for the 400 (or as we'll probably end up calling it, the Evora Mark 2).I know the cars are surely good, but how good a car is matters for nothing if the company that makes it can't sell enough to stay in business. Upping the price is not the best thing to do in my opinion if you can't sell loads at the current lower price. It's almost like Danny B is still in charge over there....
pycraft said:
A few people have mentioned this "only 6 sold in January" bit. To be fair, the fact that a heavily revised/improved Evora was going to be unveiled in Geneva have been official since about November. So to order an Evora knowing it's about to be replaced by something substantially better would be somewhere between stubborn and perverse. I'm not saying the numbers would have been inthe hundreds, but I'd suggest that many prospective Evora owners have been waiting for the 400 (or as we'll probably end up calling it, the Evora Mark 2).
I don't disagree with you for this years figures. I was nearly making a cold hard point. All this thread talk about how much better the Evora is than the Porsche option yet the actual sales figures are what actually counts. And on that alone rhe Evora is almost a complete failure by comparison. Doesn't mean it's a bad car at all, but it is a badly selling car. People knew there was a new hotter Cayman coming (with no idea it would be so limited). It didn't stop them buying the existing Cayman and Cayman S.
I do agree with other posters that marketing matters to and Danny B (in my opinion) really hurt Lotus with his grand plans, then not, then sacked, then threatening legal action etc. All of that hubbub and constant rumours about how stable and safe the company are will have made people itchy about investing in a car from Norfolk for fear that in a year or two there might be no factory to provide back up.
Just like everyone else on this thread I want them to still be around and successful in 10years time. I really do.
However I still hold the opinion that tweaking/refreshing a car that is not selling well at all, then raising the price significantly so that (price wise at least) it ends up in a whole new sales bracket... It's just the wrong thing to do. Almost suicidal.
Porsche sold less than 85 of the widely praised GTS in the UK last year, Lotus sold many more Exiges than that. The Cayman has been a total flop by Porsche standards, only the GT4 looks set to change that.
But seriously, who cares? What is the relevance of sales figures to a prospective buyer? Buy what you want, to hell with what anyone else is driving.
But seriously, who cares? What is the relevance of sales figures to a prospective buyer? Buy what you want, to hell with what anyone else is driving.
Civpilot said:
All this thread talk about how much better the Evora is than the Porsche option yet the actual sales figures are what actually counts. And on that alone rhe Evora is almost a complete failure by comparison.
You would expect the sales figures are only interesting to Porsche and Lotus but I suspect you are right, the sales figures are as important to many Porsche buyers as anything else about the cars. 
Mike Duff said:
Sorry - should have been more clear.
I'm a more modest 5'10" and even with the seat raked back there was very little space between by head and the roofline above the door. Wearing a helmet it would be knocking all the time...
Are your proportions similar to that of a primate, long in the body short in the legs? I'm a more modest 5'10" and even with the seat raked back there was very little space between by head and the roofline above the door. Wearing a helmet it would be knocking all the time...
Perhaps this could explain the shortage of head room!
How did you fair in the Cayman with your helmet?
Did you wonder the show dressed as the stig to be able to make comment on fitting comfortably in every car with helmet?
It seems strange that of all the positive changes made to this car (body, chassis, interior, drivetrain and engine!!!!) you picked up on limited head room with helmet on and Alpine branding on infotainment system, is this biased or lazy journalism??
Mike Duff said:
TTmonkey said:
CTE said:
Don`t understand the comment about the crash helmet room...there`s loads of headroom?
Yes, surely that's a factor of the height of the driver? My son in law is 6'8.... I suspect he isn't going to fit.I'm a more modest 5'10" and even with the seat raked back there was very little space between by head and the roofline above the door. Wearing a helmet it would be knocking all the time...
ant leigh said:
You would expect the sales figures are only interesting to Porsche and Lotus but I suspect you are right, the sales figures are as important to many Porsche buyers as anything else about the cars.
So how will Lotus buyers feel when the company goes out of business because they didn't sell enough cars to stay afloat then? Will they still not care about sales figures then?After all, it does seem that most Lotus supporters seem to think that sales figures matter for squat... The car is that amazing it doesn't matter how few are sold.
blueg33 said:
I am 6ft. No issues with headroom when wearing a helmet.
Yeah I must admit thought that was a bit lazy of PH to say its just a go-over, didn't i read somewhere 60% new bits? plus seats are meant to be 50mm lower, so cramped headroom comment along with ICE just looks to be clutching at straws. I think we can all agree we don't want biased journalism but equally actively looking for whats wrong from the get go seems a strange way to go about being objective. I am sure there will be downsides to GT4 as well if any journo dare say something Evo no better, unless my interweb skills are failing me I cant even see any Evora 400 motorshow coverage on their website, while Both PH and Evo have pages on some bizarre creations and not much on something actually attainable for the majority?
Gosh I am on a roll now, don't get me started on why Elise Cup R was excluded from ETCOTY only to appear in the following issue with a 5 star rating - I hasten to add, and last year the same happened to Exige Cup R too I think. Just seems odd to take away with one hand and give back with the other.
As long as they can sell enough cars to stay in business and develop their product (which has been in doubt, but they are now trying to work their way out of that mess) I don't care about them selling massive numbers of cars. I'd rather they didn't make the compromises necessary to become mass-market. That might please the shareholders, but it would mean selling more ordinary cars. From an equally selfish point of view, I'm glad they are still relatively uncommon - the similarity between a Porsche and a clitoris is not something about them that appeals.
If sales were simply down to the merits of the cars Porsche would sell fewer 911s and Lotus would sell a lot more Evoras.
Honda sold hardly any of the brilliant NSX in the UK. When it came down to it, no-one wanted to pay Porsche money for a Honda badge. The NSX's excellence was completely overlooked.
Honda sold hardly any of the brilliant NSX in the UK. When it came down to it, no-one wanted to pay Porsche money for a Honda badge. The NSX's excellence was completely overlooked.
Civpilot said:
So how will Lotus buyers feel when the company goes out of business because they didn't sell enough cars to stay afloat then? Will they still not care about sales figures then?
After all, it does seem that most Lotus supporters seem to think that sales figures matter for squat... The car is that amazing it doesn't matter how few are sold.
Jesus, get it out of your head that Lotus are chasing (or need) Porsche sales volumes.After all, it does seem that most Lotus supporters seem to think that sales figures matter for squat... The car is that amazing it doesn't matter how few are sold.
Last year they sold 2000 cars. Over the next 1-2 years they are aiming for 3000. Far better for the company that those cars be £55k Exiges and £70k Evoras than £29k Elises.
You may think the Evora is too expensive, but it is equal or better value than the previous generation £60-65k Evora S.
The product is good enough to sell at the volumes Lotus are aiming for. The rapid expansion of the dealer network and a bit of well directed marketing (and test drives) are the bigger factors in getting buyers to sign on the dotted line.
Civpilot said:
(price wise at least) it ends up in a whole new sales bracket...
It's currently being offered for just £2.5K more than the (equivalent spec, old model) Sports Racer in PH classifieds. That's actually not so much more for (potentially) so much more IMHO. I think the price hike is being discussed out of the current context in some of the media ... much as Porche's supposedly lower non-real world prices are.Civpilot said:
ant leigh said:
You would expect the sales figures are only interesting to Porsche and Lotus but I suspect you are right, the sales figures are as important to many Porsche buyers as anything else about the cars.
So how will Lotus buyers feel when the company goes out of business because they didn't sell enough cars to stay afloat then? Will they still not care about sales figures then?After all, it does seem that most Lotus supporters seem to think that sales figures matter for squat... The car is that amazing it doesn't matter how few are sold.
The stupidity on PH Lotus-related threads makes me angry. Lots of armchair experts saying, "Lotus are mad not to sell cars for £20k. What are they smoking?"
No. What are *YOU* smoking. You have no clue.
Honestly, if they could make a profit on a £20k car they'd probably sell them for £20k. Actually, they'd sell them for £25k and be quids in but that's another issue.
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
So. Stop being such a f*****g mong and get used to the fact that the economics of VW or Toyota or Mazda or (dare I say it) Porsche simply don't apply to a company that makes low volume, hand made and interesting cars.
Then get your thumb out of your *rse and wish them the Best Of British.
Rant over.
No. What are *YOU* smoking. You have no clue.
Honestly, if they could make a profit on a £20k car they'd probably sell them for £20k. Actually, they'd sell them for £25k and be quids in but that's another issue.
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
So. Stop being such a f*****g mong and get used to the fact that the economics of VW or Toyota or Mazda or (dare I say it) Porsche simply don't apply to a company that makes low volume, hand made and interesting cars.
Then get your thumb out of your *rse and wish them the Best Of British.
Rant over.
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