RE: Lotus - Geneva 2015
Discussion
chrispj said:
It's a shame Lotus can't do a deal with Toyota and have a 'Lotus corner' in every Lexus dealership and get your Toyota engined Elise/Exige/Evora serviced there with a stamp in the book. It's not like there's any overlap in the ranges so that wouldn't be a problem. It would help brand presence and ease of ownership massively, I would say those are much bigger problems for Lotus in the UK than the quality of the cars.
That's not a bad idea,having seen this pic of the silver car I,m liking the new look and to broaden sales this could be a good way forward although Toyota might not like the warranty work.........redroadster said:
chrispj said:
It's a shame Lotus can't do a deal with Toyota and have a 'Lotus corner' in every Lexus dealership and get your Toyota engined Elise/Exige/Evora serviced there with a stamp in the book. It's not like there's any overlap in the ranges so that wouldn't be a problem. It would help brand presence and ease of ownership massively, I would say those are much bigger problems for Lotus in the UK than the quality of the cars.
That's not a bad idea,having seen this pic of the silver car I,m liking the new look and to broaden sales this could be a good way forward although Toyota might not like the warranty work.........HeMightBeBanned said:
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
Or that their product is wrong for the market they're trying to sell into.I still wish them well and hope they succeed, but think that they need to work out just where Lotus sit in the automotive spectrum these days.
marshalla said:
HeMightBeBanned said:
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
Or that their product is wrong for the market they're trying to sell into.I still wish them well and hope they succeed, but think that they need to work out just where Lotus sit in the automotive spectrum these days.
SidewaysSi said:
marshalla said:
HeMightBeBanned said:
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
Or that their product is wrong for the market they're trying to sell into.I still wish them well and hope they succeed, but think that they need to work out just where Lotus sit in the automotive spectrum these days.
I think there are enough people who want a Lotus to keep them afloat, the problem is some of these people don't know they want a Lotus and of those that do know they want it, the might not be able to get it. This brings us back to Lotuses only real problem IMO, they don't have enough dealerships. If they could get more bums on seats or even get more people aware of their cars, they would probably sell enough to turn a profit.
redroadster said:
If you honestly think that bits won,t be going wrong on a lotus then think again.
I'm struggling to think of a single marque that doesn't have to undertake some warranty work. However, it would be churlish of me to mention failing con rods on another marque's flagship model or repeated reports of bore scoring and other significant engine component failure on their mainstream sportscars. redroadster said:
SidewaysSi said:
What warranty work? Toyota has had more than its fair share of recalls of late
If you honestly think that bits won,t be going wrong on a lotus then think again.redroadster said:
SidewaysSi said:
What warranty work? Toyota has had more than its fair share of recalls of late
If you honestly think that bits won,t be going wrong on a lotus then think again.And my S1 has been totally and utterly relatable so not sure what you are trying to get at.
SidewaysSi said:
Not sure being in a Toyota dealer works-they are just the engine/box supplier.
I thought of Lexus because they have pretty much the reverse image of Lotus (warranted or not) - superb engineering, but quite staid and boring (LFA apart which most punters have probably never heard of or forgotten about). I figured the two marques would pick up some of the good part of each other's reputation by association, Lotus would pick up some of the perceived engineering shine and Lexus some excitement.kambites said:
blueg33 said:
Evora warranty work tends to be pretty minor, things like door seals etc. at least the engines and gear boxes are well proven and robust.
Cough... clutch failure. 
And of course they addressed the problem quickly rather than leaving s known fault in production for many years unlike s certain volume sports car maker.
chrispj said:
SidewaysSi said:
Not sure being in a Toyota dealer works-they are just the engine/box supplier.
I thought of Lexus because they have pretty much the reverse image of Lotus (warranted or not) - superb engineering, but quite staid and boring (LFA apart which most punters have probably never heard of or forgotten about). I figured the two marques would pick up some of the good part of each other's reputation by association, Lotus would pick up some of the perceived engineering shine and Lexus some excitement.redroadster said:
SidewaysSi said:
What warranty work? Toyota has had more than its fair share of recalls of late
If you honestly think that bits won,t be going wrong on a lotus then think again.Indeed, as for the competition, absolutely nothing went wrong with the GT3s (if you exclude the small bonfire originating from the engine compartment). Porsche engines in general are absolutely bombproof (apart from cylinder scoring and a few bearing failures resulting in engined rebuilds).
SidewaysSi said:
Maybe but Lexus is a Toyota brand whereas Lotus is not. What if Lotus' engine supplier were to change in the future? If Toyota owned Lotus it would be another matter.
Well Lotus are hardly going to benefit from being in a Proton dealership! (and what if at some unspecified future date DRB sold one or the other?)leglessAlex said:
SidewaysSi said:
marshalla said:
HeMightBeBanned said:
The fact that they have been selling cars for >£30k for the past decade *AND STILL MAKE A LOSS* tells you that £20k is not viable pricepoint given their cost-base and sales volumes.
Or that their product is wrong for the market they're trying to sell into.I still wish them well and hope they succeed, but think that they need to work out just where Lotus sit in the automotive spectrum these days.
I think there are enough people who want a Lotus to keep them afloat, the problem is some of these people don't know they want a Lotus and of those that do know they want it, the might not be able to get it. This brings us back to Lotuses only real problem IMO, they don't have enough dealerships. If they could get more bums on seats or even get more people aware of their cars, they would probably sell enough to turn a profit.
That's the saddest thing about Lotus. They are in charge of one of the truly great, post-war car marques and yet despite history repeating itself time and time again they refuse to learn.
If you want to built track day cars then accept that you will only sell a few a year as that market is tiny.
If you want to sell to Western under 40s then accept that they have no money and that your product must be asperational in order to inspire the required debt purchases.
If you want to sell to the affluent and very large over 55 segment then you must accept that you must add electric seats, electric roof, heated pile warmers etc.
Lotus have none of this and instead rely on a small niche segment of the car buying society to buy their product. And the number they sell tells you everything you need to know about that group, they are not, never have been and never will be a commercially viable group to sell this kind of product to.
The one single reason that Lotus does not sell enough cars to be viable and never will is that they are not asperational. If your product is not asperational then you will never sell enough to be viable without being cheap and a firm like this cannot be cheap.
It is embarrassing to see Lotus continually compared to any Porsche product. But Porsche shows you the power of asperational sales by being the defacto utility supercar.
£70k is dirt cheap for what they build. It is just that they haveanahed to make it look less than £70k while also pitching it to completely the wrong people.
One little change and the Evora package will stop being compared to a utility, bottom end supercar and start being compared to real supercars and that is the looks. Give us something that looks a million dollars and you will not be able to build enough to meet demand at current pricing.
I aspired to own a Porsche as a teenager - I eventually did so back in 2009 and since then have had 2, with an S2 Exige squeezed in between for a short time.
The last 3 years I have been driving probably one of the best modern Porsche cars ever made (Boxster spyder), but in all that time I still aspired to own another Lotus. (now have a V6 Exige)
The Porsche was a nice car, but the combination of arsey dealers, warranty stipulations, the ever increasing idiots who now drive them and to a lesser extent, the image, I couldn't wait to get back into a Lotus.
I really can't see me going back to Porsche again.
Donkey Apple - you mention the under 40's / over 55's - what about those of us in-between?
I'm 46, fit, can get in and out a Lotus, don't need nor want fripperies and my piles only announce themselves rarely.
I don't think its all about aspirations - it's about knowing the product and not just buying what journos tell us is the best, nor following the sheep.
Unfortunately for Lotus, there aren't enough true enthusiasts with their own minds.
But Lotus is a very specialised marque - and this is the struggle.
The last 3 years I have been driving probably one of the best modern Porsche cars ever made (Boxster spyder), but in all that time I still aspired to own another Lotus. (now have a V6 Exige)
The Porsche was a nice car, but the combination of arsey dealers, warranty stipulations, the ever increasing idiots who now drive them and to a lesser extent, the image, I couldn't wait to get back into a Lotus.
I really can't see me going back to Porsche again.
Donkey Apple - you mention the under 40's / over 55's - what about those of us in-between?
I'm 46, fit, can get in and out a Lotus, don't need nor want fripperies and my piles only announce themselves rarely.
I don't think its all about aspirations - it's about knowing the product and not just buying what journos tell us is the best, nor following the sheep.
Unfortunately for Lotus, there aren't enough true enthusiasts with their own minds.
But Lotus is a very specialised marque - and this is the struggle.
Edited by Zyp on Friday 6th March 08:30
Edited by Zyp on Friday 6th March 08:31
I aspire to own a Lotus, so those people do exist. 'All' Lotus need is a few thousand others like me worldwide and they will just about turn a profit, which is what Gales is aiming for at the moment.
You made a point of saying western under 40s DonkeyApple but I thought Lotus were aiming to sell a large proportion of their cars in eastern markets where they are viewed differently? Hence introducing an automatic Exige.
I really think Lotus have a shot at being profitable in the next couple of years. A few thousand cars a year is naff all really, they'll probably have more trouble making that many than selling them. Everything I've read about the new CEO makes me think he has his head firmly out of the clouds and if they can't make it with someone like him in charge then they never will.
I'm young and that probably makes me naive (or just plain stupid) but I don't think Lotus are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Bahars plans seemed unrealistic to me but Gales' don't, and I'm going to wait a few years before claiming they are going to be a failure.
Anyway, I need them to be around in a couple of years as I want an Exige and then an Evora which I plan on buying new
You made a point of saying western under 40s DonkeyApple but I thought Lotus were aiming to sell a large proportion of their cars in eastern markets where they are viewed differently? Hence introducing an automatic Exige.
I really think Lotus have a shot at being profitable in the next couple of years. A few thousand cars a year is naff all really, they'll probably have more trouble making that many than selling them. Everything I've read about the new CEO makes me think he has his head firmly out of the clouds and if they can't make it with someone like him in charge then they never will.
I'm young and that probably makes me naive (or just plain stupid) but I don't think Lotus are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. Bahars plans seemed unrealistic to me but Gales' don't, and I'm going to wait a few years before claiming they are going to be a failure.
Anyway, I need them to be around in a couple of years as I want an Exige and then an Evora which I plan on buying new
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