RE: Lotus - Geneva 2015

[HeMightBeBanned]

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

[unsprung]

TTmonkey said:

The main thing wrong with this car is the price. It doesn't have cutting edge technology, it doesn't have a bespoke engine.... so why would you pay £70,000 plus for it?

Lotus should stick to making cars at a price point that the majority of its fans can aspire to owning.... and that's £40k or less, to me.

I mean... £70k..... you just would spend that elsewhere, wouldn't you....?

Your concern about price will be especially true for the US market -- where, for reasons of scale and community, Lotus will surely want to achieve respectable sales figures.

The previous Evora was priced from approximately $70,000 (£46000) and, although welcomed with some anticipation, was not a big hit in terms of sales.

Apart from the product, I hope that Lotus invest in community: things like learn-and-drive experiences (putting bums in seats) and educating sports / GT shoppers about the unique appeal of the Lotus story.

These things cannot be taken for granted. Lifestyles have changed and new enthusiasts and owners must be earned one-by-one and day-by-day.

[twinturban]

The Crack Fox said:

Love it. Wish PH would be a bit more positive about Lotus, this is a rather an apologetic feature, isn't it?

Evo's the same. GT4 gets 'The return of the road racer - The spectacular new Cayman GT4' on the front cover plus 5 full pages of gushing coverage.

Evora 400 gets 'Too little too late?' on the front cover and two extremely shoddy pages inside.

Then you have Chris Harris saying the UK press should be ashamed of itself for being so pro-Lotus!

[Civpilot]

anniesdad said:

Civpilot said:

Lotus Evora 400 for £70k plus options..... Or Porsche Cayman GT4 for £65k plus options? As much as I like Lotus as a company there isn't even a choice in there.

The GT4 isn't an option, if you haven't been told you're getting one by now, you can't get one...in the UK in RHD at least.

I agree with the point in principle though, having had a Lotus Evora N/a and numerous Porsche's there is no comparison in build quality. The Evora is a lovely car to drive and feels very special, to the driver and also to the public at large. But £70K is a lot of money and I think there's better value to be had elsewhere. It does pain me to say that, it really does as I'm all for buying British but for not a lot more money soon I believe you'll be able to buy an early McLaren 12C...and yes, I know that's a used/new argument right there.

Yeah I agree and that was the basic point I was trying to make. I was using it as the obvious comparison point. And I actually think the comparison still stands....

I was intentionally using base prices as option list prices for the Evora 400 are not known at this time.

An optioned Evora 400 for £75k or any optioned Cayman GT4 for £75k? Which would most people choose? Honestly? forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument. People do not spend £75k on a car in this segment for family transport.
Do people honestly believe that the average buyer with £75k in their pocket looking for a fast sports car would choose this Lotus over the Porsche?

Lets cast our mind back and ask how many people bought a standard Evora/Evora S over a Cayman/ CaymanS. Prices not far apart there either and I'm pretty sure Porsche won that fight without breaking a sweat. A very quick google found the following European sales figures for the two cars from 2009 (Evora launch date) up to and including 2014....

Lotus Evora
2009 - 166
2010 - 342
2011 - 370
2012 - 152
2013 - 158
2014 - 98

Porsche Cayman
2009 - 3,364
2010 - 2,028
2011 - 1,987
2012 - 935
2013 - 3,391
2014 - 3,236

(Car sales statistics are from the following countries: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom. Sources: Manufacturers, ANDC, JATO Dynamics.)

Little extra data.... Lotus sold just 6 Evora's in Janurary of this year. Porsche sold 172 Cayman's

Even taking the GT4 out of the equation due to availability.... optioned Evora 400 or a fully optioned Cayman GTS and money in your pocket. A fight I feel Lotus just cannot win.

I want them to... I really do! However I am writing these posts with my head, not my heart

ps. I love the look of the Standard Evora/EvoraS but this it way too much like a facelift (I know it's mechanically upgraded etc, but to the average joe buyer it will look like a facelift of a car that has been on sale since 2009... that didn't sell well as the Cayman was the better option).

[anniesdad]

HeMightBeBanned said:

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

Hear hear! I too wish Lotus every success.

I understand the Evora is the only rear mid-engined 2+2 in the world. Which is quite something. The thing is those rear seats (rear bench) are for very small kids only. I took my family to the Lakes in an Evora once but had to move the seat so far forward to accommodate my two boys that I was uncomfortable. Granted it was a one off but you could fit 4 adults in a 911 without too many problems. Regardless we took an Evora to the Lakes, had a nice day out and I treated the Wife and kids to some donuts when we got back to the car park.

[Jellinek]

The headroom limitation maybe a result of the new seats fitted to the 400. I heard Lotus have replaced Recaros with Sparco seats.

[JezF]

HeMightBeBanned said:

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

Yep, spot on. If you've driven a current Evora S, you'll know what a brilliant and polished car that is. If you are fixated with build quality, buy a Porsche!

[HeMightBeBanned]

JezF said:

Yep, spot on. If you've driven a current Evora S, you'll know what a brilliant and polished car that is. If you are fixated with perceived build quality, buy a Porsche!

Fixed that for you. At least Toyota engines aren't made of chocolate...

[otolith]

Civpilot said:

Do people honestly believe that the average buyer with £75k in their pocket looking for a fast sports car would choose this Lotus over the Porsche?

That must be huge worry for Lotus's plans to put Porsche out of business by selling 50,000 Evoras a year to people who would have bought 911s or Caymans.

[blueg33]

anniesdad said:

HeMightBeBanned said:

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

Hear hear! I too wish Lotus every success.

Plus Another

Most people who rave about Cayman vs Evora havent driven a n/a Evora, let alone an Evora 400.

Apart from parking in tight spaces I would have an Evora every day over a Cayman at the same price point, in fact I did. But I do think that the Cayman is probably the only other sports car on the market that tries to deliver the same blend of performance and handling as the Evora at a similar price. Reguslar 911's are more GT cars, GTR is less of a pure sports car, can't think of much else in this slot.

[LogicSnap]

Civpilot said:

Yeah I agree and that was the basic point I was trying to make. I was using it as the obvious comparison point. And I actually think the comparison still stands....

I was intentionally using base prices as option list prices for the Evora 400 are not known at this time.

An optioned Evora 400 for £75k or any optioned Cayman GT4 for £75k? Which would most people choose? Honestly? forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument. People do not spend £75k on a car in this segment for family transport.
Do people honestly believe that the average buyer with £75k in their pocket looking for a fast sports car would choose this Lotus over the Porsche?

Lets cast our mind back and ask how many people bought a standard Evora/Evora S over a Cayman/ CaymanS. Prices not far apart there either and I'm pretty sure Porsche won that fight without breaking a sweat. A very quick google found the following European sales figures for the two cars from 2009 (Evora launch date) up to and including 2014....

Lotus Evora
2009 - 166
2010 - 342
2011 - 370
2012 - 152
2013 - 158
2014 - 98

Porsche Cayman
2009 - 3,364
2010 - 2,028
2011 - 1,987
2012 - 935
2013 - 3,391
2014 - 3,236

(Car sales statistics are from the following countries: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom. Sources: Manufacturers, ANDC, JATO Dynamics.)

Little extra data.... Lotus sold just 6 Evora's in Janurary of this year. Porsche sold 172 Cayman's

Even taking the GT4 out of the equation due to availability.... optioned Evora 400 or a fully optioned Cayman GTS and money in your pocket. A fight I feel Lotus just cannot win.

I want them to... I really do! However I am writing these posts with my head, not my heart

ps. I love the look of the Standard Evora/EvoraS but this it way too much like a facelift (I know it's mechanically upgraded etc, but to the average joe buyer it will look like a facelift of a car that has been on sale since 2009... that didn't sell well as the Cayman was the better option).

So basically your choice is to own the same car as 15,000 people or the much more exclusive Lotus?

Maybe its a function of where I live (SW London) but you see more Pork of all descriptions Boxter/Cayman/911 than any other "aspirational" brand and for me - even with lotus blinkers it means dozens of reasons not to buy one.

Being a car snob for moment (most on PH are on some level i venture) seeing an obviously non PH driver in a new 911 turbo doing their weekly shop and probably never leaving K&C or revving over 2500 is the antitheses of why these cars were made. As a brand Porsche has become the car that people buy when they have "made it". Like buying a rolex or supporting Chelsea, the route of the desire to own or belong is because they are good (Porsche are undoubtedly good cars), but when everyone has one, somehow feels less special?

I see lotus as the FA cup upset, or the off the beaten track destination hotel - fantastic if only people knew type thing.

It also doesn't have to be either/or, there is room for both and without Lotus now and going on to do great things what a boring future we create for ourselves. To some extent it feels like its arrived already, as for some with sports car aspirations and 70k to spend they only know one website anyway!

[braddo]

Civpilot said:

...forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument. People do not spend £75k on a car in this segment for family transport.
Do people honestly believe that the average buyer with £75k in their pocket looking for a fast sports car would choose this Lotus over the Porsche?

A key reason why the 911 is so popular is that it is a 2+2. Loads of owners use the rear seats for small kids.

For those people who want the back seats, comparing the Cayman to the Evora is fking useless. The Evora is a welcome alternative option to the 911 (while being significantly cheaper than a 400hp 911).

For people who don't want the back seats, the Evora will be just as fast as the GT4 (so noticeably faster than the GTS) and - rather importantly - you'll actually be able to buy one!

The GT4 is already sold out in the UK for the next 2 years. Anyone who wants to buy a GT4 in the used market will be paying £85k+ for one. Remind me which car it is that you think is expensive?

[otolith]

braddo said:

A key reason why the 911 is so popular is that it is a 2+2. Loads of owners use the rear seats for small kids.

That's why my friend chopped his Cayman in for one.

[blueg33]

I really hope that when PH get hold of this car they ar balanced and objective, but I can't help thinking that they will start with the wrong mind set as they have done on every other Evora review.

ps. I have been offerred a Evora 400 by a dealer with a good spec at £73k, use the Porsche configurator to match that spec on a Cayman and you will paying a fair bit more

[kbf1981]

HeMightBeBanned said:

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

This. A Cayman competes with the Exige V6, which would walk it on a country road. The Evora 400 is vs the 991 C2S which is another 30k after options.

[kbf1981]

twinturban said:

The Crack Fox said:

Love it. Wish PH would be a bit more positive about Lotus, this is a rather an apologetic feature, isn't it?

Evo's the same. GT4 gets 'The return of the road racer - The spectacular new Cayman GT4' on the front cover plus 5 full pages of gushing coverage.

Evora 400 gets 'Too little too late?' on the front cover and two extremely shoddy pages inside.

Then you have Chris Harris saying the UK press should be ashamed of itself for being so pro-Lotus!

Chris Harris was talking bks. Lost all respect for him.

[XTR2Turbo]

I actually think the biggest issue for Lotus is not the product.

It is the dealers (lack of them and quality), the negative 'will they / won't they' survive news over the past three years and the poor marketing effort.

If the factory just did a PH type meet at Hethel and had customers in cars going around the track all day they would sell. It's an asset they barely use.

Every dealer should write to every customer on their database and offer a factory tour and track experience at a just above cost price.

I honestly believe that if Lotus get customers in the cars they would sell.

Also the cost of the car is really what it will be worth after three years.

I think if Lotus are going to sell Evora's, given how most people seem to buy cars these days, a very attractive finance package. Also don't dump ex manager and unsold cars on the market at silly discounts.

Cars on the road sell cars. All the German manufacturers do this but do it through customers. In the first 6 months just get cars on the road with attractive leases so they are seen to be a success. Look at the Golf R, M135i and 640d leases as examples.

David

Edited by XTR2Turbo on Wednesday 4th March 17:25

[sutats]

This is probably the only major sports car where the manual and automatic 0-60mph times are the same. That is indicative of their transmission technology which never seems to be mentioned positively.

[Sampaio]

Most Porsche 911 owners don't even know what Lotus is.

THAT'S why they don't sell, not because of build quality or dealership networks. People have no idea what a Lotus is, let alone that an Evora is a pretty good alternative to the blah blah...

[DonkeyApple]

swisstoni said:

I miss the supercar worrying, Ferrari stylist shaming Lotuses of the past. I hope they manage to get there again.

Yup. I know I'm a stuck record on this but at £70k the Lotus is dirt cheap. It's problem is that it looks cheaper still. Everything about the package is great bar the looks and regardless of what anyone says, it is looks that sell. This just isn't a poster car. Put it up against other exotica of parable performance and it stands out like a sore thumb.

This package in a body that has the same impact as the Esprit had back in the day would make this the cheapest car in the world at £70k and that tells you that it's not the price that's wrong but the looks.