RE: Lotus - Geneva 2015
Discussion
LogicSnap said:
Finally! 
lotus fan alert. So to sum up the only thing you could find to dislike was the Alpine ICE? Genuine question now, for someone that doesn't sit in lot of different cars for a living, who supplies the tech behind Ferrari/Pork/Aston etc infotainment? Not talking about the bose/burmeister audio element as that's self explanatory etc i mean the actual satnav/touch screen element? What 3rd party system would you expect at this price point? I am assuming all current manufactures don't re-invent the wheel and develop proprietary sat nav/touchsceens?
side note as current user of the maligned Alpine in the Evora (not the blackbird one) I think its very good. Takes Full UK post code can touch and scroll on the screen, easy to add updates and took me 2000 miles across France, Switzerland, Italy without missing step. Was amusing sitting in Annecy and touching "Home" in the menu worked it out no probs, including directing to ferry terminal. Was miles better than messing around with mates idrive set up in X5, only took ages and didn't work
It always makes me laugh how in every article about the Evora PH have to mention the Alpine infotainment system being rubbish - hopefully Lotus see the sense in offering the option of their CarPlay headunit, which would be a straight swap and is actually really good. lotus fan alert. So to sum up the only thing you could find to dislike was the Alpine ICE? Genuine question now, for someone that doesn't sit in lot of different cars for a living, who supplies the tech behind Ferrari/Pork/Aston etc infotainment? Not talking about the bose/burmeister audio element as that's self explanatory etc i mean the actual satnav/touch screen element? What 3rd party system would you expect at this price point? I am assuming all current manufactures don't re-invent the wheel and develop proprietary sat nav/touchsceens? side note as current user of the maligned Alpine in the Evora (not the blackbird one) I think its very good. Takes Full UK post code can touch and scroll on the screen, easy to add updates and took me 2000 miles across France, Switzerland, Italy without missing step. Was amusing sitting in Annecy and touching "Home" in the menu worked it out no probs, including directing to ferry terminal. Was miles better than messing around with mates idrive set up in X5, only took ages and didn't work
With regards to what other manufacturers are using, most use platform shares, JLR use the same infotainment across their car lines, Porsche source theirs from within VAG, I'm not sure about Ferarri (but I know they are one of the early adoptors of CarPlay, but Aston Martin have got some element of a bespoke system. Most of the really low volume/bespoke manufacturers have got platform sharing arrangements - I'd be interesed to know what/who McLaren uses though.
The problem is that a bespoke system costs a lot of money to develop and generally speaking the companies aren't interested in the low volumes.
Generally speaking bose/burmeister sound systems are done by the usual automotive suppliers and it is just a branding exercise, in my experience the brand will only be involved with signing of the tuning of the system.
Civpilot said:
forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument.
You know they improved the rear seats a tiny fraction (width of the rear bench up by a foot, new front seats mean you have somewhere to put your feet underneath them I understand).Given the choice between a 911 and an Evora, I would have the Lotus in a heartbeat. Biggest thing to put me off would be the 100 mile each way trip to a dealer for servicing.
chrispj said:
Civpilot said:
forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument.
You know they improved the rear seats a tiny fraction (width of the rear bench up by a foot, new front seats mean you have somewhere to put your feet underneath them I understand).Given the choice between a 911 and an Evora, I would have the Lotus in a heartbeat. Biggest thing to put me off would be the 100 mile each way trip to a dealer for servicing.
chrispj said:
You know they improved the rear seats a tiny fraction (width of the rear bench up by a foot, new front seats mean you have somewhere to put your feet underneath them I understand).
Given the choice between a 911 and an Evora, I would have the Lotus in a heartbeat. Biggest thing to put me off would be the 100 mile each way trip to a dealer for servicing.
I'd have said a foot is quite a lot to find!Given the choice between a 911 and an Evora, I would have the Lotus in a heartbeat. Biggest thing to put me off would be the 100 mile each way trip to a dealer for servicing.
Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.
Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
TTmonkey said:
Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.
Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
I'm glad they didn't do as you suggest. There is nothing that delivers what the Evora does at the price. Cayman is closest but is much less of an event. Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
TTmonkey said:
Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.
[snip]
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
Don't bother applying for a job on the board, as you appear to have failed to notice that Lotus is unable to make a profit selling £20k cars. They're unable to make a profit selling £30k cars.[snip]
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
Lotus is not Mazda. They don't sell eleventy billion cars across all the other market segments globally, using a heavily mechanised production process that produces a model range with volumes that give them enormous economies of scale...
...thereby enabling them to develop and sell a 2-seater that's profitable at a £20k sale price.
.Looking at the rear makes me sad.TTmonkey said:
Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.
Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
Try working out the inflation adjusted price of a £22k Elise in 1996. I don't want a £20k Lotus in 2015-a Lotus is a damn sight more desirable than any Mazda.Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
The Exige is the Cayman's direct rival and for anyone who likes driving, is a much better car.
blueg33 said:
I'm glad they didn't do as you suggest. There is nothing that delivers what the Evora does at the price. Cayman is closest but is much less of an event.
Such a shame that only 98 people agreed with you in 2014 as opposed to the 3236 who disagreed and bought the Cayman. People keep attacking me for claiming the Cayman is the Evora's nearest rival and saying that the rival is actually the 911. That's fine...
Porsche sold 12987 of those in 2014. Not sure what the split is in that figure between carrera 2/4/4s/turbo etc but I'm pretty sure they sold more than 98 carrera 2's (apparently the Evora's rival). Now if this is the case then I stand 100% behind my statement.
I love the 'standard' Evora, I think it's a fantastic looking car. But this 400.... Not different enough and pricing itself to the top of a market segment that it is already loosing in. Can lotus really stay afloat selling under 100 cars in a year? Will the 400 sell better? Maybe, will it double the sales? Or triple? I hope so, but I wouldn't take the bet.
TTmonkey said:
Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.
Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
Frankly, it seems dirt cheap for a low volume, specialist, high performance sports car. Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.
Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.
They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.
If Mazda had none of their budget or economies of scale then I doubt they could deliver something as good or cheap as the chaps at Lotus have.
The only issue Lotus have is that they've given it a body shape that looks sub £70k instead of giving it one that looks +£100k. But that's what happens when you allow engineers too much say.
Civpilot said:
blueg33 said:
I'm glad they didn't do as you suggest. There is nothing that delivers what the Evora does at the price. Cayman is closest but is much less of an event.
Such a shame that only 98 people agreed with you in 2014 as opposed to the 3236 who disagreed and bought the Cayman. People keep attacking me for claiming the Cayman is the Evora's nearest rival and saying that the rival is actually the 911. That's fine...
Porsche sold 12987 of those in 2014. Not sure what the split is in that figure between carrera 2/4/4s/turbo etc but I'm pretty sure they sold more than 98 carrera 2's (apparently the Evora's rival). Now if this is the case then I stand 100% behind my statement.
I love the 'standard' Evora, I think it's a fantastic looking car. But this 400.... Not different enough and pricing itself to the top of a market segment that it is already loosing in. Can lotus really stay afloat selling under 100 cars in a year? Will the 400 sell better? Maybe, will it double the sales? Or triple? I hope so, but I wouldn't take the bet.
SidewaysSi said:
We all know most people who buy Porsches do so for the bonnet badge so the numbers don't mean much.
I live on the top of a hill in North West London. I can confirm that Porsches of all types are ubiquitous. I can also confirm that almost no owner of the many, many 911s and Boxsters are 'drivers' but mid level accountants and lawyers for whom it is a legal requirement to buy such a car or no one at the firm will take them seriously for partner. Obviously there are many proper car fans who chose Porsche sportscars because their is no doubting that they are absolutely awesome and have huge pedigree but there is no doubt that round here almost all are bought because it is expected that the person should own such a product at a particular point in their career.
You can never accuse a Lotus owner of that but then that's why Lotus don't sell very many cars and never will. They are not asperational. No one works their arse off and makes a chunk of money to then buy a Lotus.
Civpilot said:
blueg33 said:
I'm glad they didn't do as you suggest. There is nothing that delivers what the Evora does at the price. Cayman is closest but is much less of an event.
Such a shame that only 98 people agreed with you in 2014 as opposed to the 3236 who disagreed and bought the Cayman. People keep attacking me for claiming the Cayman is the Evora's nearest rival and saying that the rival is actually the 911. That's fine...
Porsche sold 12987 of those in 2014. Not sure what the split is in that figure between carrera 2/4/4s/turbo etc but I'm pretty sure they sold more than 98 carrera 2's (apparently the Evora's rival). Now if this is the case then I stand 100% behind my statement.
I love the 'standard' Evora, I think it's a fantastic looking car. But this 400.... Not different enough and pricing itself to the top of a market segment that it is already loosing in. Can lotus really stay afloat selling under 100 cars in a year? Will the 400 sell better? Maybe, will it double the sales? Or triple? I hope so, but I wouldn't take the bet.
Lotus sales are increasing but numbers will never match Porsche. That doesn't mean that the cars are worse. Ferrari sell less than Porsche. The numbers do not reflect buyers attitude to the cars.
The problem with the Evora isn't the car its the visibility.
blueg33 said:
chrispj said:
Civpilot said:
forget the extra seat rubbish, The Evora rear seats are terrible and not even worth including in the argument.
You know they improved the rear seats a tiny fraction (width of the rear bench up by a foot, new front seats mean you have somewhere to put your feet underneath them I understand).Given the choice between a 911 and an Evora, I would have the Lotus in a heartbeat. Biggest thing to put me off would be the 100 mile each way trip to a dealer for servicing.
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