RE: Lotus - Geneva 2015

[leglessAlex]

SidewaysSi said:

TTmonkey said:

Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.

Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.

Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.

They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.

Try working out the inflation adjusted price of a £22k Elise in 1996. I don't want a £20k Lotus in 2015-a Lotus is a damn sight more desirable than any Mazda.

The Exige is the Cayman's direct rival and for anyone who likes driving, is a much better car.

According to an online inflation calculator that £22,000 Elise would cost £36,885 today.

Strangely enough, the Elise S costs £36,000 today! So really it hasn't gone up in price at all, depending on which model of Elise SidewaysSi was talking about it may even be a bit cheaper.

Edit: It was the base spec Elise released in 1996 that was £18,950 base price which in todays money is £31,770. The base spec Elise today costs £29,000 (£28,500 for the CR) so actually it has come down in price!

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 5th March 00:09

[Dr Jezz]

"we're still not really sure that Lotus's claims the car is substantially new can be borne out by the reality of something that looks pretty much identical to its predecessor from 30 feet away"

... for Evora ...

For Morgan ...

"Aero 8 is back ... looking like exactly like it did before (no bad thing in our books)"

... and Audi R8 ...

""Given the reception and success of the original R8, Audi's evolutionary approach to designing its replacement is understandable."

... Cayman GT4 ...

Zip. Nothing. Nada. No comment on styling as per every 911 since ... pretty much forever.

The Evora is a facelift car with updated looks, power, lower weight, improved interior and rear seat space, bigger brakes, LSD ... and a NEW CHASSIS for goodness sake. Give them a break and stop trying to be the cool kids in the block hanging out with Harris. This is pretty much exactly what I've wanted from the Evora since repeatedly checking online at work the day it first came out ... with the horsepower of a hot hatch and that cute smily smiley face which I just couldn't live with. This is a car I'd be willing to stretch my finances for. As to the price, the new car has essentially all the gear of a sports racer which are online today for £69.5K whereas the new Evora is being offered by dealers for 72K. So how much of a price hike for potentially a far better car? Not much and I've been to the online configurator for the GT4 (a fruitless exercise of course) and for similar spec it costs MORE than the Evora. A car I see up against the 911 as a bargain and, in my books, preferable. Roll on the reviews when people have actually tried it.

[moribund]

Interesting - count the comments on this Lotus Geneva story for a facelift of an existing car ... then look at the other Geneva stories. Only the Porsche thread is even in the same ballpark.

Lotus as a brand still really stir up emotion, I hope that translates into sales too.

[andy_s]

"The stars...'?

C'mon PHs, you can do better than that...think before you write...

[Civpilot]

blueg33 said:

Civpilot said:

blueg33 said:

I'm glad they didn't do as you suggest. There is nothing that delivers what the Evora does at the price. Cayman is closest but is much less of an event.

Such a shame that only 98 people agreed with you in 2014 as opposed to the 3236 who disagreed and bought the Cayman.

People keep attacking me for claiming the Cayman is the Evora's nearest rival and saying that the rival is actually the 911. That's fine...

Porsche sold 12987 of those in 2014. Not sure what the split is in that figure between carrera 2/4/4s/turbo etc but I'm pretty sure they sold more than 98 carrera 2's (apparently the Evora's rival). Now if this is the case then I stand 100% behind my statement.

I love the 'standard' Evora, I think it's a fantastic looking car. But this 400.... Not different enough and pricing itself to the top of a market segment that it is already loosing in. Can lotus really stay afloat selling under 100 cars in a year? Will the 400 sell better? Maybe, will it double the sales? Or triple? I hope so, but I wouldn't take the bet.

Porsche have a huge marketing budget and very high profile dealerships those alone must be responsible got attracting people to the brand. On my team two of them drive 911's, until I bought my Evora neither even knew the car existed.


Lotus sales are increasing but numbers will never match Porsche. That doesn't mean that the cars are worse. Ferrari sell less than Porsche. The numbers do not reflect buyers attitude to the cars.

The problem with the Evora isn't the car its the visibility.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, I love the standard Evora, lovely looking thing and to see one on the road is nice. Although a large part of that is down to the inrequency of a spotting. As for Porsche attracting people by having posh dealerships and marketing, I'm sure it helps a bit, but also having the rep for making solid, and performing cars for many years is worth it's weight in gold.

"Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious" - Hate that when it's rolled out, but unfortunately most car buying public know it. And as I said before, the average Joe buyer who can afford to spunk £70k on a car... That derogatory "joke" on the Lotus name that does obviously come from a long time past is damage done and I feel reflected in the sales.

'It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but you can lose it in
a minute.'

However you are wrong on the comment "Lotus Sales are increasing" as on the whole Evora sales (the car the article relates too) are not...

Lotus Evora
2009 - 166
2010 - 342
2011 - 370
2012 - 152
2013 - 158
2014 - 98

And in Janurary this year Lotus managed to sell 6 of them, just 6

I know the cars are surely good, but how good a car is matters for nothing if the company that makes it can't sell enough to stay in business. Upping the price is not the best thing to do in my opinion if you can't sell loads at the current lower price. It's almost like Danny B is still in charge over there....

[SidewaysSi]

leglessAlex said:

SidewaysSi said:

TTmonkey said:

Mazda has just relaunched a 20k rear drive sports car. They'll sell millions.

Lotus will sell a few hundred. Maybe 1 or 2 thousand, max.

Lotus can't possibly contend with Ferrari and McLaren and Lambo. Or even Porsche. The new "Esprit" level model is beyond them and people won't buy it for the money they'd have to charge to compete within this sector.

They should have stuck with the Elise of the 1990s sector, and offer a reasonably cheap, simple, sub 200 bhp car that people can actually afford.

Try working out the inflation adjusted price of a £22k Elise in 1996. I don't want a £20k Lotus in 2015-a Lotus is a damn sight more desirable than any Mazda.

The Exige is the Cayman's direct rival and for anyone who likes driving, is a much better car.

According to an online inflation calculator that £22,000 Elise would cost £36,885 today.

Strangely enough, the Elise S costs £36,000 today! So really it hasn't gone up in price at all, depending on which model of Elise SidewaysSi was talking about it may even be a bit cheaper.

Edit: It was the base spec Elise released in 1996 that was £18,950 base price which in todays money is £31,770. The base spec Elise today costs £29,000 (£28,500 for the CR) so actually it has come down in price!

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 5th March 00:09

Bingo. I do love it when ill informed people prattle on about Lotus prices. Same as Caterham I would say-the Seven has gone up at least £10k on a like for like basis in the same period.

These cars are not boring/mass produced VWs or Porsches and so much the better.

The Evora will be as practical as a 911, at least as quick, better to drive, rarer, more exclusive, cheaper to run and arguably with a better bonnet badge. What's the issue?

[blueg33]

I can buy a new Evora Sports Racer in n/a form for £55k

I can get the same performance from a Cayman GTS, if I spec the GTS to the same spec as the Evora (less the isofix) the Gayman is £58,300 acording to the Porsche configurator.

So Lotus is cheaper, more exclusive and has back seats for small people/luggage

If you the look at the Cayman GT4 against the Lotus 400, the Cayman is slower on paper and the price of comparable spec cars is near identical.

Looking at the above, I just dont get the logic of half the posts on this thread. The problem with Lotus really isn't the cars IMO it is marketing and dealership presence.

A question for those that know about Porsches, does the Caymam GTS and GT4 have the engine with the bore score issues or have they replaced it with a new engine as in the 991?


(edited as my typing is inept)

Edited by blueg33 on Thursday 5th March 07:33

[HeMightBeBanned]

blueg33 said:

I can buy a new Evora Sports Racer in n/a form for £55k

A question for those that know about Porsches, does teh Caymay GTS and GT4 have the engine with the bore score issues or have they replaced it with a new engine as in the 991?

Why stop at bore scoring? How about overheating on cylinders 5 and 6 and the IMS failure too?

[SidewaysSi]

I think the Porsche problems are in the past but any car up to a Gen 1 997 (2008) is a risk. As of course we're 991 Gt3s

Yep, can add that Lotuses are better made/engineered than Porsches.

Talking pricing, when the Elise was new in 1996, the 993 at the time was about £56k from memory. Now a new 991 is £90k+. What sort of idiot buys a new Porsche eh? Bloody overpriced. I wouldn't pay over £50k for one etc.

[kambites]

Civpilot said:

However you are wrong on the comment "Lotus Sales are increasing" as on the whole Evora sales (the car the article relates too) are not...

"Lotus Sales are increasing" isn't the same as "Evora sales are increasing in the UK". The UK is an increasingly small percentage of Lotus's sales and the Evora isn't even their best selling model, let alone their only one.

[kambites]

SidewaysSi said:

Yep, can add that Lotuses are better made/engineered than Porsches.

I'm sure the engines are... Toyota have a rather larger development budget than Porsche. The rest of the car is not, however.

[Vee12V]

Dr Jezz said:

"we're still not really sure that Lotus's claims the car is substantially new can be borne out by the reality of something that looks pretty much identical to its predecessor from 30 feet away"

... for Evora ...

For Morgan ...

"Aero 8 is back ... looking like exactly like it did before (no bad thing in our books)"

... and Audi R8 ...

""Given the reception and success of the original R8, Audi's evolutionary approach to designing its replacement is understandable."

... Cayman GT4 ...

Zip. Nothing. Nada. No comment on styling as per every 911 since ... pretty much forever.

The Evora is a facelift car with updated looks, power, lower weight, improved interior and rear seat space, bigger brakes, LSD ... and a NEW CHASSIS for goodness sake. Give them a break and stop trying to be the cool kids in the block hanging out with Harris. This is pretty much exactly what I've wanted from the Evora since repeatedly checking online at work the day it first came out ... with the horsepower of a hot hatch and that cute smily smiley face which I just couldn't live with. This is a car I'd be willing to stretch my finances for. As to the price, the new car has essentially all the gear of a sports racer which are online today for £69.5K whereas the new Evora is being offered by dealers for 72K. So how much of a price hike for potentially a far better car? Not much and I've been to the online configurator for the GT4 (a fruitless exercise of course) and for similar spec it costs MORE than the Evora. A car I see up against the 911 as a bargain and, in my books, preferable. Roll on the reviews when people have actually tried it.

Exactly. It's a rather pathetic approach from the UK (and other) press folk.

Ot: looks better in the flesh than on the launch pics. I'm going to try one when they're here.

[SidewaysSi]

kambites said:

SidewaysSi said:

Yep, can add that Lotuses are better made/engineered than Porsches.

I'm sure the engines are... Toyota have a rather larger development budget than Porsche. The rest of the car is not, however.

Not much else of any note to go wrong is there in a Lotus?!!Besides given the amount of electronic junk in a new Porsche, I wouldn't want to be looking to fix one out of warranty.

[kambites]

SidewaysSi said:

Not much else of any note to go wrong is there in a Lotus?!!Besides given the amount of electronic junk in a new Porsche, I wouldn't want to be looking to fix one out of warranty.

That is not my experience.

[CTE]

Journalists will write to sell print and make money. Big car manufacturers spend fortunes with the press and get positive results. Unfortunately Lotus do not have this budget so will always struggle to get positive reviews. At least the name in F1 is a good move and about the only thing Bla Bla did right. Go on YouTube and look at Harris`s review of the Exige S...its very positive, so he will have changed his tune for a reason that`s less obvious...anyhow he is a journalist and will spout anything to sell print...
Lots of nonsense talked about price...yes it is a lot of money for any car, but the real cost is the depreciation and interest, plus running costs...which to date for Lotus`s are low...much lower than most rivals...so they are relatively cheap!
I`ll be test driving one when available.

A year ago I convinced myself a Boxster S was the car for my everyday motoring so I test drove one and duly placed the order. Anyhow time passed and it occurred to me I was in no way excited about the pending arrival (basically whilst it was a beautiful car, it left me cold, a but like an Audi), so I cancelled it (Porsche could not believe it!). I then saw an Exige Roadster in a nearby showroom and had a test drive. I think I had got 30 yards down the road and I had a big grin on my face and I was smitten, and have been ever since. I do accept though that the Exige is a bit hard core for most...in truth the Boxster etc are a different type of car, and appeal to a greater number of people, and long may that continue...I do not want Lotus to become "common".

[rob.e]

HeMightBeBanned said:

The negativity on here is so saddening.

Why does the Cayman keep getting mentioned? The Evora has 400bhp and is a 2+2. The only German car of that spec is a 991 C2S.

The 911 C2S is £100k, so at £70k the Evora is a bargain and far more exclusive / interesting. Yes, it won't be as teutonic or as well finished as the Porker but it's also not dull. Plus, it will steer, ride and handle rings around the Porker. The boggo Evora was the ride and handling benchmark used by Ferrari when they developed the F458.

I wish Lotus every success with this car.

yep, nail, head. saved me from typing

[anniesdad]

Cayman keeps getting mentioned as it's at a similar price point as the Evora. If the Evora wants to pick a fight with the 911 it will lose all day, but not in the steering feel, handling department. Gearbox is another argument altogether.

Fwiw, I've had more trouble with Porsche's than with Lotus's.

[NigelCayless]

I think it looks great. I'd swap my 997 for one.

[Civpilot]

kambites said:

Civpilot said:

However you are wrong on the comment "Lotus Sales are increasing" as on the whole Evora sales (the car the article relates too) are not...

"Lotus Sales are increasing" isn't the same as "Evora sales are increasing in the UK". The UK is an increasingly small percentage of Lotus's sales and the Evora isn't even their best selling model, let alone their only one.

Two things...

1. This is a thread about the Evora so I only googled the sales figues for the Evora not the entire Lotus range.

2. Those figures are not just the UK. That is the whole of Europe (so 98 Evora's over the whole of Europe sold in 2014) so not sure why you have suddenly started talking about UK sales? And your right, the Evora isn't thier best selling model... but again, this is a thread about the Evora so why even bring the other models into the mix? Not sure how that is relevant? but in the interests of fairness, here are the figures:-

Lotus - All models

2009 - 1,072
2010 - 1,255
2011 - 800
2012 - 420
2013 - 607
2014 - 637

(and in the interests of fairness the 2014 total sales number for Porsche is 54,004, and their annual sales have increased since 2009 when they 'only' sold 33,400 cars)

Not once have I implied that Lotus do not make a good car, or even a great one, but for the money they want for the 400 I dont think they will succeed in bumping sales to a point where they are not struggling. The Evora 400 looks like a bodykitted Evora, not even a fully successful one (front is lovely, rear is not). And to the average buyer first impression and 'reputation' counts. And if the company are widely reported to be stuggling with sales etc then to alot of people that alone will stop the sale.

I get that loads of this thread voted with their wallets and contributed to Lotus sales... and I am sad that there are not more like them. I just don't think they can properly compete with the 'big boys', especially when figures of £70k plus are bounced around, no matter how great the cars are. And the sales figures for the company selling great cars below this figure are cold hard proof of that

I also agree with a previous poster who implied Lotus should make another entry level 'affordable' sports car like the original Elise. When the new MX5 launches (that early drives have called an absolute gem of a car) I think it will sell massively well. Starting price of £20k. Current Elise starts at about £28k. Imagine if Lotus could put out a car at £20k again?

But I say as I have said before.... I want to be wrong and I want this car to be a huge success. I'm just being realistic and not holding my breath

[swisstoni]

NigelCayless said:

I think it looks great. I'd swap my 997 for one.

They just need to be seen about more, so that the seeds can be sown. If I was in the Lotus marketing dept. I'd be getting some out and about in the sort of places that the demographic for these (or Boxters/Caymans) hang out.

I won't embarrass myself by suggesting where these places are because I'm not young or trendy but the marketers will (or should) know.