RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

[DonkeyApple]

PugwasHDJ80 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Indeed. Toyota sell to poor people because they are cheap and also reliable making them value for money for non debt monkey nations.

79 series landcruisers are far from cheap- like for like they are more expensive than a defender (which is what they come up against). A v8 amazon landcruiser is not far off the price of a range rover (and hold their money far better too- one of the lowest depreciating cars in existence)

The core difference is suitability for market- the 79 series is a workhorse, that's all it does. it has a massive 4.5 v8 diesel, with huge long range tanks, excellend build quality and a very tougth drivetrain.

There is no reason why JLR couldn't do the same thing if it wanted to.

The problem is likely to be that JLR stop making a "workhorse" and just become a luxury vehicle. This would be a massive mistake for them- the LR brand is also about country living, shooting etc (note this is the brand association). Just like porsche will always make a sportscar, LR always need to make a workhorse that can be used by farmers. If it just starts to make vehicles bought by urbanites then its going to be in trouble.

A reliable defender replacement, that was comfy, but easy to clean and maintain, whicj could tow 3.5tonnes, carry a bale of hay and not break or rust would sell in the bucketload.

Making the vehicle convertible into lots of other types will also help!

I'm afraid they couldn't even get close to competing. It's about economies of scale and opportunity cost. The Asian builders have economies of scale that JLR can't even begin to get near and at the same time JLR have massive opportunity costs that dwarf anything an Asian builder has.

[TurboHatchback]

SuperPav said:

As for off-road credentials, trust me, a current FFRR (or even a RRS for that matter) with decoupling anti-roll bars, air suspension, electronic traction aids, 2 locking diffs, and 900mm wading capability, will go where no production Defender can ever dream of going, and will do so with significantly less drama, and in much more comfort.

Off-road performance is not ALL about solid beam axles.

Absolutely, but what they won't do is work consistently and reliably for hundreds of thousands of miles of off road driving without requiring complex and expensive maintenance and repair work. Fully independent air suspension is great in many ways but requires a huge amount of links, bushes, ball joints, arms etc which are less robust and long lasting than a simple solid axle setup. Also air suspension is marvellous but somewhat complex and a failure of a single airbag, level sensor, valve block or pump can render the vehicle undriveable. As for electronic traction systems, they are fine for occasional use but lose a single wheel speed sensor and the system is useless, also sustained use will overheat and eventually wear out the brakes. Good old fashioned manual locking diffs are a much better solution but they do require some user competence, hence why they are not fitted to many 4x4s. Then we get to the construction, monocoque is great for weight reduction, stiffness and handling but not so great for regularly crunching into the scenery.

Don't get me wrong, Rangerovers are very capable off road vehicles but they are luxury cars designed to cope with occasional off road use, they are not designed for sustained hard off road use far from the Landrover dealership. For most people that is perfect, exactly what they require but for the tiny subset of those who own farms or like to travel across the Australian bush there will always be a requirement for a more old-school sort of off-road utility vehicle.

[AW111]

In 2011, Mercedes did a PR jaunt along the Canning stock route in Australia.

Here is what happened : 6 of the 7 vehicles suffered failed shock absorbers

Not tough enough: The hulking Mercedes-Benz G-Class has not survived the Australian Outback, with six vehicles experiencing shock absorber damage and breaking down during a demonstration drive along Western Australia’s notorious 2000km Canning Stock Route.
Day seven of the planned 14-day off-road journey from Wiluna to Halls Creek proved the breaking point for the six of the seven vehicles – five of which were $161,680 Mercedes-Benz G 350 wagons, the other a military-grade utility.

Mercedes-Benz Australia’s David McCarthy described the situation from Well 36, which is just past the halfway point of the drive.“The Canning Stock Route is in very bad condition in certain areas and has caused suspension damage to most vehicles disembarking north of Well 33 over the past 48 hours,” Mr McCarthy said.

“We have reduced the pace we are travelling at to ensure the vehicles remain driveable, which all seven of them currently are. We have organised for additional shock absorbers to replace those that are damaged or that need attention, they will be flown in to Well 33 where two of our six person logistics team will pick them up from the plane and then drive them to Well 36 where we are camped.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/131418/mercedes-benz-g...


TL;DR; The G Wagon isn't the paragon of off-road toughness they claim.

[SuperPav]

TurboHatchback said:

For most people that is perfect, exactly what they require but for the tiny subset of those who own farms or like to travel across the Australian bush there will always be a requirement for a more old-school sort of off-road utility vehicle.

Exactly! Small subset = unprofitable.

The reason hiluxes have beam axles and basic engineering (easy to fix) isn't to answer the demand of those few who want to trek the Andes, it's because it's cheaper, and gives a simple car that costs peanuts that is used by a lot of tradespeople as a result. Its suitability for trekking is a byproduct of its basic-ness.

LR couldn't compete at that level due to very low volumes compared to Toyota, and as someone mentioned above, the opportunity cost, which for Toyota is a fraction of what it is for JLR.

Also remember part of the reason hiluxes took over is their reliability. As simple as Defenders are, they still aren't as reliable as the japs!

Don't get me wrong though, I'd love a basic LR, for the same reason I really like the Jimny and look forward to its replacement! Which is why I have one of the last Defender 110's on order to replace my Evoque this year

However, even though I probably have a minority usage profile (more off-roading than most customers), I still think I'll be better off with a slightly less agricultural Defender replacement when that comes along. If it keeps the spirit and "fun" aspect of the current Defender, I'll be happy.

[Derek Chevalier]

TurboHatchback said:

As for electronic traction systems, they are fine for occasional use but lose a single wheel speed sensor and the system is useless

On the affected axle, agreed, but I'm not aware of any current serious off roader than has an unlockable centre diff

[TurboHatchback]

Derek Chevalier said:

TurboHatchback said:

As for electronic traction systems, they are fine for occasional use but lose a single wheel speed sensor and the system is useless

On the affected axle, agreed, but I'm not aware of any current serious off roader than has an unlockable centre diff

I assume you meant 'centre diff that cannot be locked' rather than 'unlockable centre diff'? I don't know about current production 4x4s, most of them could not be called serious off roaders anyway. I believe that many Discovery 2s had no centre diff lock and L322 Rangerovers had a Torsen centre diff (so torque biasing but not fully locking). There must be others but my knowledge is not encyclopedic.

[SuperPav]

TurboHatchback said:

Derek Chevalier said:

TurboHatchback said:

As for electronic traction systems, they are fine for occasional use but lose a single wheel speed sensor and the system is useless

On the affected axle, agreed, but I'm not aware of any current serious off roader than has an unlockable centre diff

I assume you meant 'centre diff that cannot be locked' rather than 'unlockable centre diff'? I don't know about current production 4x4s, most of them could not be called serious off roaders anyway. I believe that many Discovery 2s had no centre diff lock and L322 Rangerovers had a Torsen centre diff (so torque biasing but not fully locking). There must be others but my knowledge is not encyclopedic.

Current Discovery, RR and RRS with twin-speed transfer box all have open diffs with an electronically operated mechanical centre diff lock i.e. not a torsen. Rear locking open diff is fitted to some RR and RRS.

[NomduJour]

Pre-'06 L322 have torque-sensing centre diffs that can't fully lock.

[kbf1981]

Just picked up my new Defender 110 XS Station Wagon. It's an awesome piece of kit. Alcantara headlining too on these 2015 models