RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

[oldtimer2]

There were several interesting ideas and features in the DC100 concepts - many of which have since appeared on the new Range Rovers. I agree with you about the appeal of being able to chop and change, unscrew it all and then screw/bolt it back together again - a form of Meccano for adults. In that respect one can foresee an indefinite future life for the Series 1-3 and Defender versions as there is such a well developed after market to service them.

Re the new Land Rover it seems to me that they need the utility versions to be able to function as a platform capable of adaptation to many uses (like the orginal). Calling it a dual role vehicle makes sense. The biggest three sellers in the USA are just that - pick up trucks with crew cabs made by Ford GM and Dodge. In effect for many US consumers they have taken on the role of the traditional US sedan as they offer just about every bell and whistle a consumer could ask for with well thought out flat bed platforms adaptable as much for weekend leisure pursuits as for the weekday builder.

[AW111]

I reckon they should re-think the concept. Land rovers used the then-novel aluminium to get a light body on a multi-purpose chassis - do it again 21st century style.

Modern engine and driveline, aluminium chassis, and a composite body / bodies. Make them reinforced kevlar where appropriate for military vehicles, a cab-chassis utility vehicle, etc., etc.

Oh, and fix the reliability issues ffs!

[kbf1981]

DonkeyApple said:

skyrover said:

DonkeyApple said:

LR neglected development of the Landy to the point that JLR have no choice but to switch it off. JLR is operating at factory capacity so why build a Defender which has just a few grand margin in it when instead that factory space can be used to build a Range Rover with a few tens of thousands margin in it. Same with the utility vehicle, why build something you can't sell in enough numbers to be profitable when you can build a big margin, prestige car instead.

Because that barely profitable relic is what gives the LR brand credibility and allows it to claim "ultimate off-roader"

Nothing else in the LR stable comes close to the Defender's suitability for off-road environments.

As I have said previously... remove the Defender without a like for like replacement and you may as well rename the brand "mall-roamer"

No one offroads. No one cares about offroading. And those that do and are serious about it build their own cars. As per the examples you always post the cars are always heavily modified. Plus the Range Rober was the better off roader so that brand is the ultimate off-roader not Land Rover.

And as for nothing in the JLR coming close that's complete tosh. The most basic JLR product can do all the off roading needs that anyone normal will ever, ever need.

No one needs a car to climb a mountain or cross a gorge, they need it to move about on tarmac or tracks.

And frankly, when you look at the rise of the new world, having a peasant farmers car in the showroom next to your bling 'look how wealthy I am now' products is going to scare away the new money brigade who are desperate to hide the fact that their parents were peasant farmers.

Toyota sell a lot of Landcruiser 70's, and Hilux's. Jeep also sell a lot of Wranglers.

[kbf1981]

Max_Torque said:

The current RR/Disco is incredibly capable off road, with active air suspension, and active cross axle difflocks, leaving the normal defender looking really quite out dated when the going gets tough.


BUT.


When the going gets tough, to the point where you actually need a diff lock, one wrong move or unlucky slip is going to do several thousand pounds worth of damage to the underside (and the top side!) of a RR/Disco. On a defender, you collect dents, and knock the end of the bumper straight with a sledgehammer, and off you go again. Try that in £100k worth of RR...........

New Defender has very cool traction control and incredible axel articulation. Plus for a couple grand you can do whatever you want with them, take a 30k XS and spend £10k on mods and you'll go anywhere.

[DonkeyApple]

kbf1981 said:

Toyota sell a lot of Landcruiser 70's, and Hilux's. Jeep also sell a lot of Wranglers.

Indeed. Toyota sell to poor people because they are cheap and also reliable making them value for money for non debt monkey nations. The Defender is neither.

Wrangler is a US lifestyle toy. The Defender can't be sold in the US.

And none of those products are manufactured in the UK where both land and labour costs are far higher.

JLR as a business is not structured for any of this so where is the business sense in trying to be a low volume producer of low margin products for a niche market?

[kbf1981]

DonkeyApple said:

kbf1981 said:

Toyota sell a lot of Landcruiser 70's, and Hilux's. Jeep also sell a lot of Wranglers.

Indeed. Toyota sell to poor people because they are cheap and also reliable making them value for money for non debt monkey nations. The Defender is neither.

Wrangler is a US lifestyle toy. The Defender can't be sold in the US.

And none of those products are manufactured in the UK where both land and labour costs are far higher.

JLR as a business is not structured for any of this so where is the business sense in trying to be a low volume producer of low margin products for a niche market?

If they don't make a Defender or similar... what defines their brand and make it compelling, or is it just another BMW / Audi and people will no longer be willing to pay more for a Range Rover than they are an X5 / ML?

Porsche sell sports cars because it defines the brand. They don't sell many GT3's but they still offer them because it defines the brand. Without a Defender, LR are just another posh car company.

[DonkeyApple]

kbf1981 said:

DonkeyApple said:

kbf1981 said:

Toyota sell a lot of Landcruiser 70's, and Hilux's. Jeep also sell a lot of Wranglers.

Indeed. Toyota sell to poor people because they are cheap and also reliable making them value for money for non debt monkey nations. The Defender is neither.

Wrangler is a US lifestyle toy. The Defender can't be sold in the US.

And none of those products are manufactured in the UK where both land and labour costs are far higher.

JLR as a business is not structured for any of this so where is the business sense in trying to be a low volume producer of low margin products for a niche market?

If they don't make a Defender or similar... what defines their brand and make it compelling, or is it just another BMW / Audi and people will no longer be willing to pay more for a Range Rover than they are an X5 / ML?

Porsche sell sports cars because it defines the brand. They don't sell many GT3's but they still offer them because it defines the brand. Without a Defender, LR are just another posh car company.

The Range Rover has defined the brand since the early 70s when sales took over from Landies. It has not only defined the brand but invented, defined and dominated the whole sector globally. Land Rover have been a 'posh car company' long before the likes of Audi or BMW started to think they were posh.

Selling around 10,000 low end utility vehicles to mostly middle class Englishman isn't what defines JLR.

[MC Bodge]

kbf1981 said:

If they don't make a Defender or similar... what defines their brand and make it compelling, or is it just another BMW / Audi and people will no longer be willing to pay more for a Range Rover than they are an X5 / ML?

Porsche sell sports cars because it defines the brand. They don't sell many GT3's but they still offer them because it defines the brand. Without a Defender, LR are just another posh car company.

I'm not sure how much Cheshire wives in RRs and Evoques or Chinese millionaires care about Defenders.

[DonkeyApple]

MC Bodge said:

I'm not sure how much Cheshire wives in RRs and Evoques or Chinese millionaires care about Defenders.

About as much as everyone else seeing as no one wants to buy them and hasn't done for decades, ever since better foreign products arrived.

It's all very good mocking small groups who buy other JLR products but at least the products are in real demand, command a hefty premium and are profitable and growing.

[kbf1981]

MC Bodge said:

kbf1981 said:

If they don't make a Defender or similar... what defines their brand and make it compelling, or is it just another BMW / Audi and people will no longer be willing to pay more for a Range Rover than they are an X5 / ML?

Porsche sell sports cars because it defines the brand. They don't sell many GT3's but they still offer them because it defines the brand. Without a Defender, LR are just another posh car company.

I'm not sure how much Cheshire wives in RRs and Evoques or Chinese millionaires care about Defenders.

You're right, that's why Porsche still make GT4's and the like... because those people still buy those in droves. Or not.

The Defender is a halo car of sorts. It says "I'm serious about being a go anywhere, do anything brand". The Range Rover without a Defender is now up against Bentley's on one end, and Audi's on the other. If you're not THE go anywhere brand, then you're just another in a long line of lux makes trying to win everyone's wallet.

This is a long term issue not a short term one. Without halo products you see no difference in 3yrs, you do in 10.

The Landscruiser is a good case in point. It has always had consistent, strong sales, because it's always been seen as a strong vehicle and even if many don't take them off road, that's why many buy them. Because it's a beast. I'd have a Landcruiser anyday over a Range Rover as I think a Range Rover if you take away the off road, exploration credentials, is a bit girly.

[MC Bodge]

kbf1981 said:

You're right, that's why Porsche still make GT4's and the like... because those people still buy those in droves. Or not.

The Defender is a halo car of sorts. It says "I'm serious about being a go anywhere, do anything brand". The Range Rover without a Defender is now up against Bentley's on one end, and Audi's on the other. If you're not THE go anywhere brand, then you're just another in a long line of lux makes trying to win everyone's wallet.

This is a long term issue not a short term one. Without halo products you see no difference in 3yrs, you do in 10.

The Landscruiser is a good case in point. It has always had consistent, strong sales, because it's always been seen as a strong vehicle and even if many don't take them off road, that's why many buy them. Because it's a beast. I'd have a Landcruiser anyday over a Range Rover as I think a Range Rover if you take away the off road, exploration credentials, is a bit girly.

I suspect that you are not actually a customer.

[kbf1981]

MC Bodge said:

kbf1981 said:

You're right, that's why Porsche still make GT4's and the like... because those people still buy those in droves. Or not.

The Defender is a halo car of sorts. It says "I'm serious about being a go anywhere, do anything brand". The Range Rover without a Defender is now up against Bentley's on one end, and Audi's on the other. If you're not THE go anywhere brand, then you're just another in a long line of lux makes trying to win everyone's wallet.

This is a long term issue not a short term one. Without halo products you see no difference in 3yrs, you do in 10.

The Landscruiser is a good case in point. It has always had consistent, strong sales, because it's always been seen as a strong vehicle and even if many don't take them off road, that's why many buy them. Because it's a beast. I'd have a Landcruiser anyday over a Range Rover as I think a Range Rover if you take away the off road, exploration credentials, is a bit girly.

I suspect that you are not actually a customer.

We'll see who's right in a few years time.

Edited by kbf1981 on Monday 9th March 23:46

[MC Bodge]

kbf1981 said:

We'll see who's right in a few years time.

Edited by kbf1981 on Monday 9th March 23:46

I don't think I'm actually that bothered.

Land Rover have transcended the farmer's workhorse "image" and have become an object of ostentatious desire.

[DonkeyApple]

MC Bodge said:

I don't think I'm actually that bothered.

Land Rover have transcended the farmer's workhorse "image" and have become an object of ostentatious desire.

Exactly. And the market has proven over the last 40 years that it actually doesn't need vast numbers of vehicles able to Julie Andrews but infact just wants something that is dirt cheap and able to transport the whole family plus any equipment down a crappy track at best.

All this 'Climb and Mountain' stuff is just marketing guff and as we've already seen they can still do that by driving a Range Rover Sport pointlessly up Pikes Peak or across a bit of desert that no one has bothered with before and claim a record for PR purposes.

And Defender replacement will have to fit the JLR brand and be suitable to be sold through the existing inner city dealer network and not need new dealers in Outer Mongolia or Timbuktu. And that means it will have the modern luxuries expected of modern cars. It will also need to be expensive enough to warrant utilising limited factory capacity.

That means it can never be the farmer's workhorse as they haven't been the customer for decades but be suitable for the modern customer which for years has been the lifestyle market. We just have to hope that they will be really clever and carry over the whole utility aspect but orientated to the leisure market etc.

[skyrover]

DonkeyApple said:

All this 'Climb and Mountain' stuff is just marketing guff and as we've already seen they can still do that by driving a Range Rover Sport pointlessly up Pikes Peak or across a bit of desert that no one has bothered with before and claim a record for PR purposes.

But it's bragging points isn't it?

Believe it or not the off-roading community is actually rather large, especially outside of the UK

[oldtimer2]

skyrover said:

DonkeyApple said:

All this 'Climb and Mountain' stuff is just marketing guff and as we've already seen they can still do that by driving a Range Rover Sport pointlessly up Pikes Peak or across a bit of desert that no one has bothered with before and claim a record for PR purposes.

But it's bragging points isn't it?

Believe it or not the off-roading community is actually rather large, especially outside of the UK

Exactly - and that is the market they will go for if/when they can find a way round the US "chicken tax". If the cars are pricey enough it might just be absorbed into the final price.

John Edwards, who runs SVO has said:
"In the future we plan to launch extreme off-road performance versions. Think of a cross between a Camel Trophy Land Rover and a Dakar Rally desert racer and you`ll get the idea. Watch this space for more details. Supreme off-road performance, of course, will always be a Land Rover priority."

My guess is that the Big Foot Land Rover that will feature in the next Bond film is an early PR example of this approach; as is the recent Land Rover Defencder rally series run by Bowler. I expect such products will get the attention of PHers. They will be a million miles away from their farmyard origins, but spot on JLR`s target markets. Nor is the idea all that new. Land Rover got into the Camel trophy back in the early 1980s for this very reason, successively entering Range Rovers, 110s and later Discoveries and Defenders in the series. It proved to be hugely successful; towards the end of the series it is said c1 million people put their names forward for selection for selection in the teams.

[DonkeyApple]

skyrover said:

DonkeyApple said:

All this 'Climb and Mountain' stuff is just marketing guff and as we've already seen they can still do that by driving a Range Rover Sport pointlessly up Pikes Peak or across a bit of desert that no one has bothered with before and claim a record for PR purposes.

But it's bragging points isn't it?

Believe it or not the off-roading community is actually rather large, especially outside of the UK

But they can brag by driving a Rangie pointlessly up a hill faster than someone else.

I do get what you are saying but the JLR brand is about SUV luxury and has been for decades and they are the best offload luxury 4x4 in the world bar none.

Building a car that no one needs and has been proven isn't wanted and all at the expense of building cars that people do want and will pay huge margins to have just to be able to claim they can go up a hill no one needs to go up isn't where it is at.

The Defender really doesn't feature as a brand overseas and in markets where there is real offroading combined with real wealth the product is actually rediculed by many.

As for the extreme offroading stuff done for fun, that's done with modified not factory kit and in Aus the Land Rover product is mocked in favour of the cheaper and better Japanese stuff. And even if it were better it would still be mocked because it would be a defense mechanism triggered by them not being able to afford it.

And in the US that leisure market is sown up by domestic builders and the entire aftermarket network caters for these and some Japanese stuff. So even if your product is better you'd have no aftermarket mod industry to support it for decades.

And to cap it all, when you look at the unit margins of the Japanese and US equivalents they are far more inline with the unit margins of their other products meaning opportunity cost is far less of an issue if one at all. Unlike at JLR where it is massive.

Let the Defender as is be made by an overseas entity where land and labour are cheap but there is absolutely no way it or any product like it could be built by the low volume, high labour and land cost, luxury car builder that is JLR.

And as for 'reputation' that's a non issue as for the next 50 years Defenders will be driving all over the place still advertising and promoting Land Rover just like Ferrari 250 GTOs still promote Ferrari. And JLR can wheel them out whenever they want that association to their past.

The G Wagon is still here because they didn't like lose their commercial sales and they invested in taking their retail product upmarket when they saw that this was the future. Land Rover gave away all its commercial sales, didn't bother getting any new ones and completely ignored the ever growing Western demand for luxury, lifestyle goods even though these have been the only people buying Defenders in numbers for years.

My guess is that if they had delivered that revised, wider body prototype they built in the 80s then there would have been proper scope to take it upmarket and it wouldn't be being killed off now under the rise of not being able to get an engine compliant at the same time as building one of the most compliant engines available on the market.

[DonkeyApple]

hora said:

A few years ago in central Manchester I cycled up alongside a G Wagon at the lights. I said to the driver 'I love your car'. He was over the moon!

I drove an AMG one. It is a hilarious car. It's like JE's Zulu Defender but with a far superior interior and just feels more solid. As it should, given the price.

I'd love it if JLR had been able to do similar with the Defender but the starting base doesn't make it logical.

As mentioned above, I'm sure Bowler are going to have a say in any replacement. A product marketed as being able to climb up a mountain at 1mph isn't going to sell anywhere near as much as a product seen jumping hills at 100mph.

[TurboHatchback]

I think the Defender is long overdue an update, I just hope they keep the fundamental spirit intact. If they keep the solid axles with huge articulation, all mechanical 4x4 bits and bobs (levers for hi/lo range & centre diff lock not buttons), manual gearbox, simple interior etc yet make it proportioned for actual humans and less prone to spontaneously dissolving then it could be great.

Personally as passenger vehicles I rate G-Wagens over defenders and 80-series Landcruisers above both of those. They might not be quite able to match the extreme axle articulation of a defender but triple locking differentials and a massively superior engine and drivetrain more than make up for that and the driving experience is just so much more pleasant all round.

[DonkeyApple]

TurboHatchback said:

I think the Defender is long overdue an update, I just hope they keep the fundamental spirit intact. If they keep the solid axles with huge articulation, all mechanical 4x4 bits and bobs (levers for hi/lo range & centre diff lock not buttons), manual gearbox, simple interior etc yet make it proportioned for actual humans and less prone to spontaneously dissolving then it could be great.

Personally as passenger vehicles I rate G-Wagens over defenders and 80-series Landcruisers above both of those. They might not be quite able to match the extreme axle articulation of a defender but triple locking differentials and a massively superior engine and drivetrain more than make up for that and the driving experience is just so much more pleasant all round.

Would be nice.

Personally, once you add all that extreme offroading stuff, IE the articulation, you lose the onroad ability that is absolutely essential for sales. As you can see with every single SUV being made in numbers today it is vital that it works as a family road car to the detriment of extreme offroading as they are used as road cars with mild offroading as opposed to serious offroading where people will build their own product.

The Bowler RR Sport shows that a modern chassis and suspension from an on road application can work rather well offroad and at extreme performance. I believe they have a product based on the new chassis rather than the Disco ladder of the original Sport?

Crossing a hill at high speed is far more sexy and better for marketing than crawling over a rock which really doesn't interest anyone in any commercial number.

I think the future lies in a 5 seater crew cab concept on the modern chassis with bolt on utility bits for the rear section and able to cruise at 120mph both on and off road.