RE: G-Wagen vs Defender: PH Blog

[NomduJour]

DonkeyApple said:

That means it can never be the farmer's workhorse as they haven't been the customer for decades

Disagree - you still see plenty of newish Defenders on farms, particularly 90s in the hills.

If there was a genuine Land Rover rival to the higher-end twin-cabs they would take a big share of the market over here again - the Japanese stuff has gained a foothold because the Defender is an archaic antique, not because the rivals are perfect for the job. Doesn't need to be a One Life special, doesn't need to be ultra-basic - just needs to be a modern, practical, comfortable, capable vehicle that can tow 3.5 tonnes and (largely) go where a Defender can.

[DonkeyApple]

NomduJour said:

DonkeyApple said:

That means it can never be the farmer's workhorse as they haven't been the customer for decades

Disagree - you still see plenty of newish Defenders on farms, particularly 90s in the hills.

If there was a genuine Land Rover rival to the higher-end twin-cabs they would take a big share of the market over here again - the Japanese stuff has gained a foothold because the Defender is an archaic antique, not because the rivals are perfect for the job. Doesn't need to be a One Life special, doesn't need to be ultra-basic - just needs to be a modern, practical, comfortable, capable vehicle that can tow 3.5 tonnes and (largely) go where a Defender can.

'Plenty of newish Defenders'. They only sold about 14k last year and nearly all were sold as lifestyle vehicles and very few for genuine professional use.

It's quite clear that the crewcab concept such as the Navarra is a more succesful product, like the Ute in Aus, pick-up in the U.S. and the rest of the world. It drives like a car, carries the family like a car, can tow an awful lot and has that big open space at the rear to transport almost anything.

I agree that it needs to be modern, comfortable etc but it doesn't need to be 'go anywhere' like the current Defender. It needs to be 'go anywhere a JLR customer needs to go'. And they don't need to go over a huge rock that you could easily drive round in a Ferrari.

And where is the future for JLR completely reversing their entire business model and selling a workman' product to people with not much money?

If JLR build anything it will be a lifestyle product with family and road practicalities as a priority over the need to climb a rock there is no need or desire to climb. And the majority will be sold to urban dwellers just like the current Defender is as those are the people there are the most of in the West, with the most money and where all the sales outlets are.

It's going to be a product pitched at crossing desserts at 100mph while carrying your weekend living quarters on the back which can be taken on and off and replaced with field sports units etc. it won't be aimed at fleet sales to utility companies or selling 5 fire engine units a decade or begging the State to buy them. But it will be designed to work brilliantly with the aftermarket suppliers who will build rear units to do all sorts.

And I suspect it will be absolutely awesome and sell in buckets and with great margins like all other Land Rover products.

At worst, the Defender brand will become a badge for stripped out, more practical versions of existing models but I think that would be a great shame and a real loss of potential.

[NomduJour]

I'm not suggesting a Hilux rival, more a trim level to compete with the twin-cabs. There are a lot of people buying Japanese pick-ups who would rather buy a Land Rover which is a genuine alternative. Certainly wouldn't harm sales of the glitzy McGoverned version.

[jhonn]

A couple of my mates (both running newish Defenders, more as lifestyle vehicles) are seriously considering buying one of the run-out models - 'It's the last chance, end of an era, never have the opportunity again, etc..', they say.

If they do, I think they'll regret it. When the new one comes out it will really show the current Defender up as outmoded, archaic and the ergonomic disaster that it is.

I think that the G-Wagen will soldier on it's current format for many more years - it has the whole comfort/performance/durability/performance/ability balance much better sorted - with an added frisson of aspirational exclusivity thrown in too.

[DonkeyApple]

NomduJour said:

I'm not suggesting a Hilux rival, more a trim level to compete with the twin-cabs. There are a lot of people buying Japanese pick-ups who would rather buy a Land Rover which is a genuine alternative. Certainly wouldn't harm sales of the glitzy McGoverned version.

Agree. But also the dealer network isn't there for a true commercial vehicle it has to be bias the lifestyle market. And infact that is the exact market that has been buying Defenders. There are more blinged up Defenders in London and the Cotswolds than all the base models owned by hill farmers on the entire planet. And you can chuck in builders also.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Tuesday 10th March 13:23

[skyrover]

In 30 years time, how many of those defender's will still be working?

How many current gen range rovers and discoveries will still be working?

I will now highlight this page as posted on another thread.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/10/avoidable...

Perhaps I am a dinosaur that does not see the way in which the world is supposedly heading, however I believe wholeheartedly that the Defender is a fundamentally superior product to any Range Rover or Discovery currently on the market.

If the next Defender will not have the longevity of the current one, than as far as I am concerned it is not worthy, regardless of whatever trick air suspension, climate control, mod-con's Land Rover shoe-horn into it.

[clarki]

skyrover said:

Perhaps I am a dinosaur that does not see the way in which the world is supposedly heading, however I believe wholeheartedly that the Defender is a fundamentally superior product to any Range Rover or Discovery currently on the market.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!

[skyrover]

clarki said:

skyrover said:

Perhaps I am a dinosaur that does not see the way in which the world is supposedly heading, however I believe wholeheartedly that the Defender is a fundamentally superior product to any Range Rover or Discovery currently on the market.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!

Do you honestly believe many current gen range rover's will be pottering about on British roads 30 years from now?

EDIT: and more to the point, would anybody WANT to keep a current gen range rover on the road 30 years from now?

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 10th March 20:07

[PhillipM]

skyrover said:

In 30 years time, how many of those defender's will still be working?

Quite a lot, but then, looking at 30 year old Defenders now, Triggers broom comes to mind...

[skyrover]

PhillipM said:

skyrover said:

In 30 years time, how many of those defender's will still be working?

Quite a lot, but then, looking at 30 year old Defenders now, Triggers broom comes to mind...

Indeed... but they are kept alive because even 30 years later they are desirable.

A classic range rover fall's into the same category.

A modern range rover?... not so much IMO... far too difficult, expensive, complex and structurally incompatible. It has become an (expensive) disposable product.

[DonkeyApple]

skyrover said:

clarki said:

skyrover said:

Perhaps I am a dinosaur that does not see the way in which the world is supposedly heading, however I believe wholeheartedly that the Defender is a fundamentally superior product to any Range Rover or Discovery currently on the market.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!!

Do you honestly believe many current gen range rover's will be pottering about on British roads 30 years from now?

EDIT: and more to the point, would anybody WANT to keep a current gen range rover on the road 30 years from now?

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 10th March 20:07

All modern cars are a result of a three year retail debt cycle so you can't blame the product for fitting the market that we are in.

So long as debt is easy and advocated by the State then modern cars will have restricyed shelf lives.

But making cars isn't a charity but a commercial enterprise and no one with money wants a Dedender enough to keep it going. They want Range Rovers if they can afford them and if they can't they want products that reflect what the Range Rober stands for.

And what is amazing about JLR is that they can do all that and still be able to go as offroad as anyone ever needs.

Right or wrong, the Defender serves no purpose. It's bought for fun as a bit of exciting nostalgia. It's not actually bought for serious reasons.

And it will be very sad that it has gone. And nothing will truly replace it. But as no one really wants it then we can't trouble ourselves too much.

The interesting thing is that when we all talk about the replacement we talk about it needing to be a better road car, able to transport the family, appeal to all sections of society yet still able to absolutely cut the mustard offroad. The reality is that the obvious replacement for the 2015 Land Rover is the 1969 Range Rover.

[NJH]

I was shocked to see a recent Rangie in my specialists breaker compound, he told me this would happen for the recent Discos and up as they become uneconomical to repair but its still a shock to see it. I will be amazed if many of them are around in 20 years let alone 30.

Rather than a 'new' defender wouldn't a modern re-imaginng of the classic Range Rover make more sense? There seems to be a lot of interest recently around those and its easy to see why, if someone made one for new for about 30 grand or so my god it would be tempting.

[Derek Chevalier]

kbf1981 said:

...and incredible axel articulation..

Really? Looks average to me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NcDw5FW7oU

[SuperPav]

The success of Mini and Fiat 500 have shown how you can replace an icon with a different, relevant modern equivalent, making the most of the design and character of the original.

I'm sure there were plenty of moaners on here when the original mini got killed off (I had one for 5 years!), yet there are many many more PH's who have purchased and enjoy a R53 or R56 Cooper S, who would have never purchased a classic mini even if it was still in production, as they either wouldn't fit in it, it would be unsafe, uncomfortable, unrefined etc.

Same with the Fiat 500. Seriously, how many current Abarth owners do you think would ever contemplate trying to squeeze themselves into an original 500? I've been in the old ones a number of times, it's an exciting, but not the most pleasant of experiences.

If the Defender replacement can pull off the formula with similar success, it'll be great!


As for off-road credentials, trust me, a current FFRR (or even a RRS for that matter) with decoupling anti-roll bars, air suspension, electronic traction aids, 2 locking diffs, and 900mm wading capability, will go where no production Defender can ever dream of going, and will do so with significantly less drama, and in much more comfort.

Off-road performance is not ALL about solid beam axles.

[DonkeyApple]

NJH said:

I was shocked to see a recent Rangie in my specialists breaker compound, he told me this would happen for the recent Discos and up as they become uneconomical to repair but its still a shock to see it. I will be amazed if many of them are around in 20 years let alone 30.

Rather than a 'new' defender wouldn't a modern re-imaginng of the classic Range Rover make more sense? There seems to be a lot of interest recently around those and its easy to see why, if someone made one for new for about 30 grand or so my god it would be tempting.

And yet, a chap in the next village down from me in the Cotswolds is fixing the L302s all day long and says the electronics are easy to sort and so is everything else.

And I was with a chap this afternoon who keeps modern BMWs running from his barn.

While I agree with you that these modern cars are almost disposable because of their complexity (I no longer own any modern cars and probably won't until I am too infirm to not need area warmers and boot openers) guys far smarter than me think absolutely nothing of all this modern electronic crap.

[NomduJour]

DonkeyApple said:

Agree. But also the dealer network isn't there for a true commercial vehicle it has to be bias the lifestyle market. And infact that is the exact market that has been buying Defenders. There are more blinged up Defenders in London and the Cotswolds than all the base models owned by hill farmers on the entire planet. And you can chuck in builders also.
]

Plenty of Isuzu Rodeos around, not many dealers (we had one, dealer was miles away) - can't see that being an issue. There are plenty of LR dealers in any case.

The reason all farmers don't have Defenders any more is because they're ancient and the alternatives are better suited to their needs - QED.

[DonkeyApple]

NomduJour said:

DonkeyApple said:

Agree. But also the dealer network isn't there for a true commercial vehicle it has to be bias the lifestyle market. And infact that is the exact market that has been buying Defenders. There are more blinged up Defenders in London and the Cotswolds than all the base models owned by hill farmers on the entire planet. And you can chuck in builders also.
]

Plenty of Isuzu Rodeos around, not many dealers (we had one, dealer was miles away) - can't see that being an issue. There are plenty of LR dealers in any case.

The reason all farmers don't have Defenders any more is because they're ancient and the alternatives are better suited to their needs - QED.

Nom, it really doesn't matter. There are less than 40,000 farmers in the UK. No one in their right mind is going to concern themselves over such an irrelevant demographic when thinking about the key markets for their product. There are over 2m driveways in London suburbia alone and almost all with the desire for debt and lifestyle products.

That alone tells you where to target any product. A small number of poor or fiscally prudent people or an army of debt monkeys.

And secondly, all these Asian vehicles that the new Land Rover is to replace, how does JLR come close to being competitive?

And if JLR were to achieve enormous numbers of low margin sales how would they build them all?

There's no space at the factory, land and labour are many factors more costly in UK than Asia, there is no global dealer network for the product, JLR can't build in volume and none of it at all fits in any way into JLRs business model.

We will see but I think we can all agree that if they do what they spoke about a year or two ago which seemed like a total brand pastiche then we'd prefer it if the Defender never returned.

[kbf1981]

SuperPav said:

As for off-road credentials, trust me, a current FFRR (or even a RRS for that matter) with decoupling anti-roll bars, air suspension, electronic traction aids, 2 locking diffs, and 900mm wading capability, will go where no production Defender can ever dream of going, and will do so with significantly less drama, and in much more comfort.

Off-road performance is not ALL about solid beam axles.

Chuck £10k at an off the shelf £30k Defender and it would be a much better off roader than FFRR - and much harder to break. The FFRR is what, £80k+? So for half the price you can have an easy to fix, go anywhere vehicle that's much less likely to break and much easier to fix if it does. This is why Defenders, Landcruiser 70 and 80 series, and Hilux's etc. are often used as the basis for expedition vehicles. Easy to upgrade anything you need, easy to fix, and can be made into very, very competent off road vehicles.

Edited by kbf1981 on Wednesday 11th March 08:59

[SuperPav]

kbf1981 said:

SuperPav said:

As for off-road credentials, trust me, a current FFRR (or even a RRS for that matter) with decoupling anti-roll bars, air suspension, electronic traction aids, 2 locking diffs, and 900mm wading capability, will go where no production Defender can ever dream of going, and will do so with significantly less drama, and in much more comfort.

Off-road performance is not ALL about solid beam axles.

Chuck £10k at an off the shelf £30k Defender and it would be a much better off roader than FFRR - and much harder to break. The FFRR is what, £80k+? So for half the price you can have an easy to fix, go anywhere vehicle that's much less likely to break and much easier to fix if it does. This is why Defenders, Landcruiser 70 and 80 series, and Hilux's etc. are often used as the basis for expedition vehicles. Easy to upgrade anything you need, easy to fix, and can be made into very, very competent off road vehicles.

Edited by kbf1981 on Wednesday 11th March 08:59

You're absolutely right, and that's why the aftermarket exists and there is a need for it.

But even Defenders (very niche vehicle today) in 95% cases stay pretty much unmodified when new ish - I'm excluding things like side steps and bull bars etc. There are very few (as a percentage) who take new Defenders and completely rebuild them into expedition vehicles.

OEM's sell cars that appeal to as many people as possible in the state/price level they roll out of the factory in.

And while £40k spent on a Defender will indeed give you a go-anywhere car, for multi-purpose use, i.e. including the commute to work and driving 100 miles to a mountain bike trail, a bog standard Discovery will still be better value for MOST people.

[PugwasHDJ80]

DonkeyApple said:

Indeed. Toyota sell to poor people because they are cheap and also reliable making them value for money for non debt monkey nations.

79 series landcruisers are far from cheap- like for like they are more expensive than a defender (which is what they come up against). A v8 amazon landcruiser is not far off the price of a range rover (and hold their money far better too- one of the lowest depreciating cars in existence)

The core difference is suitability for market- the 79 series is a workhorse, that's all it does. it has a massive 4.5 v8 diesel, with huge long range tanks, excellend build quality and a very tougth drivetrain.

There is no reason why JLR couldn't do the same thing if it wanted to.

The problem is likely to be that JLR stop making a "workhorse" and just become a luxury vehicle. This would be a massive mistake for them- the LR brand is also about country living, shooting etc (note this is the brand association). Just like porsche will always make a sportscar, LR always need to make a workhorse that can be used by farmers. If it just starts to make vehicles bought by urbanites then its going to be in trouble.

A reliable defender replacement, that was comfy, but easy to clean and maintain, whicj could tow 3.5tonnes, carry a bale of hay and not break or rust would sell in the bucketload.

Making the vehicle convertible into lots of other types will also help!