RE: What happened to the pocket rocket? PH Blog
Discussion
The fiesta in it's standard form is quite bread and butter. You have to be very careful about what version you choose. The ST and the Red/Black editions are light years ahead of the others in handling and ride, and the ecoboost with 140hp is a peach. Like I said, don't discount it just because it is a fiesta.
I think there is market for this kind of cars.
In fact I think is the only kind of car I could think about buying new. Something not too expensive, not too powerful, not too heavy, not too thirsty, not too hard to insure. About 1 ton and 130hp I think is a very sweet spot. A car that can do it all and be fun while it is at it. Just fun, not overly fast or something like that.
I am really hopeful with the new twingo. Something with this numbers adding rwd and some renaultsport tweaking can be a real cracker. I am not thinking in a 180hp hot hatch, just a 130-140 1 ton little funny thing. Cheap to buy, insure and maintain. That would be great.
Also, I think that PSA has a golden opportunity if they manage to put the 130bhp puretech engine 3-cyl into a c1 or a 108. It would be the real new saxo vts/106 gti.
And it is always said that a halo model helps increasing sales of base ones, so why can't this be true again?
PD: I am really scared about the numbers people is talking for young pistonheads insurance rates in the uk. Can't you insure a young driver as the "occasional driver" or something like that? it is the way to do it in spain, if you do not want to be paying over 800€ for insurance. My father insured me in his car this way when I was younger, around 22-3, and we were paying around 500€ for a total coverage insurance (with a fixed rate for repairs, etc) in a 2009 C4 coupé.
In fact I think is the only kind of car I could think about buying new. Something not too expensive, not too powerful, not too heavy, not too thirsty, not too hard to insure. About 1 ton and 130hp I think is a very sweet spot. A car that can do it all and be fun while it is at it. Just fun, not overly fast or something like that.
I am really hopeful with the new twingo. Something with this numbers adding rwd and some renaultsport tweaking can be a real cracker. I am not thinking in a 180hp hot hatch, just a 130-140 1 ton little funny thing. Cheap to buy, insure and maintain. That would be great.
Also, I think that PSA has a golden opportunity if they manage to put the 130bhp puretech engine 3-cyl into a c1 or a 108. It would be the real new saxo vts/106 gti.
And it is always said that a halo model helps increasing sales of base ones, so why can't this be true again?
PD: I am really scared about the numbers people is talking for young pistonheads insurance rates in the uk. Can't you insure a young driver as the "occasional driver" or something like that? it is the way to do it in spain, if you do not want to be paying over 800€ for insurance. My father insured me in his car this way when I was younger, around 22-3, and we were paying around 500€ for a total coverage insurance (with a fixed rate for repairs, etc) in a 2009 C4 coupé.
TameRacingDriver said:
My dad used to own an AX GT, and my dads mate, in an attempt to upstage, got the GT500 (apologies for the cheesy picture 
)
His had leather interior (well, it claimed to be anyway
)
They weighed something like 750 kg (may have been even less), and had 85 bhp but it felt like an absolute rocket. The thing would probably get out-dragged by a half decent shopping cart now, but by god it was fun to be a passenger in. It squealed at 100+ due to being full of holes probably and generally felt like a death trap but he said the handling was something else.
Nothing much like it now.
Even better with a Saxo VTS engine and cammed to 160bhp. Proper little rockets then! I even turbo'd mine to 318bhp.)His had leather interior (well, it claimed to be anyway
)They weighed something like 750 kg (may have been even less), and had 85 bhp but it felt like an absolute rocket. The thing would probably get out-dragged by a half decent shopping cart now, but by god it was fun to be a passenger in. It squealed at 100+ due to being full of holes probably and generally felt like a death trap but he said the handling was something else.
Nothing much like it now.
Baryonyx said:
JRS2Rallye said:
I agree that there is a lack of a Junior category today, I am also biased towards old PSA hot hatches. However if you look at cars like the Fiesta ST they are the modern day equivalents. A 106 rallye S2 cost £9895 in 97, with inflation that is just over £16k in todays money, compare this with just over £17k for a Fiesta ST.
It's hard not to be biased towards them, they were the best!My old 106 Rallye is without a doubt the best hot hatch I've ever driven. When people talk about cars punching above their weight, this was a real contender for meagre stats balanced against incredible cornering ability. And because it wasn't very heavy and very fast in a straight line, you didn't spend ever approach to a corner diving on the brakes!
Snap!
Derek Chevalier said:
currybum said:
Limpet said:
you could still enjoy yourself. The 106 or Saxo were perfectly capable of entertaining you as 1.1 poverty models. The hot versions just added power and grip.
Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
My wife had a 1.1 Saxo when we met, and served a second car until it completely died at 55kmiles.Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
It was without doubt the worst case of automotive apathy and cost cutting I have ever seen, the engine sounded terrible, and drivability was almost non-existent, after 30k miles the engine performance just dropped off of a very low cliff to the point where 60mph was the highest speed you could ever hope to drag out of it.
The handling was woeful, it felt as wallowy as a massive SUV without any of the comfort, under any cornering speed it would just understeer with no warning.
Interior was just as bad, seats were little more that upholstered dining chairs and there was no thought at all as to where the switched might need to be…
It was the result of a design brief of “make it as cheap as possible” with a 20% target stretch added on last minute.
A hateful death trap…why anyone would look back on these with fondness I do not know…it was replaced with a new Fiesta which accounting for inflation was not that much more but was orders of magnitude better in every single way.
Good news is that all the saxo/106’s lest will soon be recycled in to something more useful.
Greatr article
The way manufacturers market these sort of cars can also be a problem.
The temptation is to heavily push them as 'Gti lites'.
I'd love to see some new pocket rockets quietly make their way into the spec sheets without any fanfare.
Performance fans would soon discover them - perhaps without being saddled with a huge insurance premium (wishful thinking perhaps).
I remember my old Peugeut 205 XS. What a great little car. Went like stink but nobody really knew it was special or what is was capable of. XS? Just another Peugeot trim level was what most people thought.
The way manufacturers market these sort of cars can also be a problem.
The temptation is to heavily push them as 'Gti lites'.
I'd love to see some new pocket rockets quietly make their way into the spec sheets without any fanfare.
Performance fans would soon discover them - perhaps without being saddled with a huge insurance premium (wishful thinking perhaps).
I remember my old Peugeut 205 XS. What a great little car. Went like stink but nobody really knew it was special or what is was capable of. XS? Just another Peugeot trim level was what most people thought.
I think my little 13 plate Ibiza SC 1.2 FR tsi just about squeaks in here !
Its a great little car which seems to have more than the quoted 105 bhp ! It goes really well (0-60 under 9 seconds) and handles really nicely - the steering is nicely weighted too.
Its dirt cheap to ensure, the road tax is only £30 a year and it does 40 mpg running around town - looks good in white with grey alloys too !
Its a great little car which seems to have more than the quoted 105 bhp ! It goes really well (0-60 under 9 seconds) and handles really nicely - the steering is nicely weighted too.
Its dirt cheap to ensure, the road tax is only £30 a year and it does 40 mpg running around town - looks good in white with grey alloys too !
soad said:
Or this.
Never has the Pocket Rocket moniker been more apt than on this and the original shape car.Had some of my best driving memories in the late 80's and early 90's in the two I owned. The one in the pic above is the spit of my second one, dealer used it as a poster car after I drove it brank spanking new out of the showroom with 195/50.15 tyres on 15" Mim alloys and lowered suspension!!
The original 1.5i shape but with the 1.6-16 engine was leagues ahead of the equivalent hot hatches of the mid 80's in areas like the unburstable revviness of the engine, the damping and the sweetness of the gearbox, let alone in build quality. Even had plastic wings IIRC to keep weight down. Did over 100,000 miles in total in 5 years over the two cars, neither missed a beat.
Cheers for posting that, brought back some great memories. Wonderful things in their time..
StottyEvo said:
Derek Chevalier said:
currybum said:
Limpet said:
you could still enjoy yourself. The 106 or Saxo were perfectly capable of entertaining you as 1.1 poverty models. The hot versions just added power and grip.
Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
My wife had a 1.1 Saxo when we met, and served a second car until it completely died at 55kmiles.Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
It was without doubt the worst case of automotive apathy and cost cutting I have ever seen, the engine sounded terrible, and drivability was almost non-existent, after 30k miles the engine performance just dropped off of a very low cliff to the point where 60mph was the highest speed you could ever hope to drag out of it.
The handling was woeful, it felt as wallowy as a massive SUV without any of the comfort, under any cornering speed it would just understeer with no warning.
Interior was just as bad, seats were little more that upholstered dining chairs and there was no thought at all as to where the switched might need to be…
It was the result of a design brief of “make it as cheap as possible” with a 20% target stretch added on last minute.
A hateful death trap…why anyone would look back on these with fondness I do not know…it was replaced with a new Fiesta which accounting for inflation was not that much more but was orders of magnitude better in every single way.
Good news is that all the saxo/106’s lest will soon be recycled in to something more useful.
I owned a 1.1 and a 1.5 diesel and they both managed to accelerate from 60mph+ with little trouble. The BEST thing was the seats! No real side support but so comfy, and the ride was supple as well. All heater/radio bits laid out neatly in the centre console. I'll certainly look back on mine with great fondness and appreciation that a cheap shopping car provided thrills for minimal outlay.I've now got a Suzuki Swift Sport, stupidly good fun around corners, just goes round flat meaning you can carry more speed than a higher powered car and just has a sense it wants to be grappled with.
As someone who is looking for the most fun-for-buck hot hatch, I'm more confused than ever ...
I drove the Abarth 500, and think it can be great fun considering it's a piece of garbage in many respects, but there seems to be a consensus that he Fiesta ST is pretty much the hatch to get , for the money, the engine and gearbox, steering and smallish size .
I drove the Abarth 500, and think it can be great fun considering it's a piece of garbage in many respects, but there seems to be a consensus that he Fiesta ST is pretty much the hatch to get , for the money, the engine and gearbox, steering and smallish size .
SteveS Cup said:
Pixelpeep7r said:
SteveS Cup said:
The issue is insurance.
10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
Yet a friend of mines son got his insurance down from £2100 to £850 by selling the 4 year old Peugeot 207 and buying a 15 year old BMW 330i10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
You couldn't make that s
t up!The driver of the 1.0 is much more likely to be thrashing the tits off their car for example whilst the barge boys who clearly love cars and mpre like to be an enthusiast be wafting about!
Sorry to be another person ranting on about the new Fiesta ST but the question in my eyes is why would you pick a warm hatch these days over one? The Fez does everything you want it to and more and you can probably finance/lease one for about the same if not cheaper than you can say a Suzuki Swift Sport. Even the new Red/Black edition Fiestas are only about £1000 more than a base model ST IIRC.
culpz said:
Sorry to be another person ranting on about the new Fiesta ST but the question in my eyes is why would you pick a warm hatch these days over one? The Fez does everything you want it to and more and you can probably finance/lease one for about the same if not cheaper than you can say a Suzuki Swift Sport. Even the new Red/Black edition Fiestas are only about £1000 more than a base model ST IIRC.
I've just made the call between a red edition and the St. If I did fewer miles, then it probably would have been the St, but the combination of cheap running costs, fun and little more comfort swung it towards the red edition. Really is a great car and I don't feel like I'm missing out too much not paying the extra for the St. Getting a new red edition for £12.5k sealed the deal.Entirely what Dan said. The Red edition does 90% of what the ST does but if you do the kind of mileage I do (450 a week) choosing the Red edition is a no brainer. I am getting 50mpg on my 80 mile daily commute and can rag it when I want to. There is no way I would get that kind of efficiency out of the ST and even if the ST is a bit quicker I think the Red is a more rounded package for everyday use and occasional hooning.
I really hope that this class of car doesn't end up being forgotten about - everyone seems far too obsessed with power and turbos these days to remember that performance is also about weight. I've always loved these types of cars and it probably stemmed from when my dad had a 205 GTI when I was younger.
I've had a Lupo GTI for almost a year now and it's an absolute riot to drive when you push it; in days where electronics control everything it's great to be able to drive something that's a real handful when you put your foot down. Yes they were expensive when new but I can't believe VW haven't made a replacement when you see the way they've held their value; mine is now 12 years old and is still worth a third of it's value when new.
I suppose I'm the exception to the general rule of people my age; even though I'm not 20 yet I'd rather have something older and more analogue-feeling. I love the fact that when VW made the Lupo GTI they were basically saying here's a steering wheel, 3 pedals and 125bhp, have fun
I've had a Lupo GTI for almost a year now and it's an absolute riot to drive when you push it; in days where electronics control everything it's great to be able to drive something that's a real handful when you put your foot down. Yes they were expensive when new but I can't believe VW haven't made a replacement when you see the way they've held their value; mine is now 12 years old and is still worth a third of it's value when new.
I suppose I'm the exception to the general rule of people my age; even though I'm not 20 yet I'd rather have something older and more analogue-feeling. I love the fact that when VW made the Lupo GTI they were basically saying here's a steering wheel, 3 pedals and 125bhp, have fun
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