RE: What happened to the pocket rocket? PH Blog
Discussion
I waited and waited,then waited a little more and then gave up on the hope of a VW Up (I refuse to use the ! at the end of its name) GT ever arriving.
I end up buying a Monte Carlo Fabia instead - only 5hp down, still a manual with a proper hand brake. But it is a little larger (& more useful because of this), so the Up would have been more entertaining to drive (if they made it) - the choice would have been nice.
VW group have no excuse either - the Up GT is basically a parts bin special (as the Cayman GT4 proves that can be a good thing).
I end up buying a Monte Carlo Fabia instead - only 5hp down, still a manual with a proper hand brake. But it is a little larger (& more useful because of this), so the Up would have been more entertaining to drive (if they made it) - the choice would have been nice.
VW group have no excuse either - the Up GT is basically a parts bin special (as the Cayman GT4 proves that can be a good thing).
rogerhudson said:
The road/camera congestion climate killed the hot hatch, and the supercar, the days of going up Streatham High St. at 90mph are long over.
Even the old standby, 6.00am on a lovely June morning back road , is no longer an option (ex-911 driver).
Nothing like that ever saw the death of a popular car type. Consumer demand is what does it. Henceforth, cars of all types are still sold, irrespective of how they'll actually be used. The hundreds of supercars sold every year in this country that will do a bit of posing on the high street, tootle to the office and then back to the supplying dealer for a service, never driven in anger or given anything near a spanking. Even the old standby, 6.00am on a lovely June morning back road , is no longer an option (ex-911 driver).
The primary market for the old mini-hot hatch class was the younger buyer in their 20's, a demographic that has mainly moved away from performance cars. Where once a young lad would have dreamed of getting a Fiesta Zetec S or a Saxo VTS, now he just wants a white diesel Audi that is as cheap to run and insure as possible whilst still having the 'correct' badge on the front. Performance car marketing has lost it's grip on the public too, I suspect, because where previously a sports car was seen as an object of desire to most, most buyers these days want an SUV - dreadful to drive compared to a proper car.
IS anyone else thinking of this? AX at the Ring
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-eurocars/citroe...
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-eurocars/citroe...
currybum said:
Whiters said:
Cooper and ST are a class and price bracket above what's being talked about here though me thinks.
The 106 Rallye was £10500 in 1997...which is £17,200 in today money thrown in an extra 2.5% Vat between then and now and it's in the same price bracket as the ST and Cooper...but certainly many classes below.What I was getting at is that many of the old cars talked about filled the sub 'Fiesta class' (as it used to be referred to), and the suggested current models all sit a level below the respective manufacturers current Fiesta competitors. Perhaps Mini should consider a sub-Mini sized car that might actually be Mini
Baryonyx said:
Nothing like that ever saw the death of a popular car type. Consumer demand is what does it. Henceforth, cars of all types are still sold, irrespective of how they'll actually be used. The hundreds of supercars sold every year in this country that will do a bit of posing on the high street, tootle to the office and then back to the supplying dealer for a service, never driven in anger or given anything near a spanking.
The primary market for the old mini-hot hatch class was the younger buyer in their 20's, a demographic that has mainly moved away from performance cars. Where once a young lad would have dreamed of getting a Fiesta Zetec S or a Saxo VTS, now he just wants a white diesel Audi that is as cheap to run and insure as possible whilst still having the 'correct' badge on the front. Performance car marketing has lost it's grip on the public too, I suspect, because where previously a sports car was seen as an object of desire to most, most buyers these days want an SUV - dreadful to drive compared to a proper car.
I totally agree with this. Previous target markey now get diesel German cars with S-Line" / "M-Sport" spec for brand with economy. The smallest cars in the range are now for boring / sensible choices and are most likely to be bought like a White Good with a Which? report in hand and not an Evo. The primary market for the old mini-hot hatch class was the younger buyer in their 20's, a demographic that has mainly moved away from performance cars. Where once a young lad would have dreamed of getting a Fiesta Zetec S or a Saxo VTS, now he just wants a white diesel Audi that is as cheap to run and insure as possible whilst still having the 'correct' badge on the front. Performance car marketing has lost it's grip on the public too, I suspect, because where previously a sports car was seen as an object of desire to most, most buyers these days want an SUV - dreadful to drive compared to a proper car.
Whiters said:
currybum said:
Whiters said:
Cooper and ST are a class and price bracket above what's being talked about here though me thinks.
The 106 Rallye was £10500 in 1997...which is £17,200 in today money thrown in an extra 2.5% Vat between then and now and it's in the same price bracket as the ST and Cooper...but certainly many classes below.adw1979 said:
The standard Abarth 500 costs £14500, has 135BHP and weights about 1100kg
It is a great car for driving and defo fits the pocket rocket tag.
There is also an option for more power.
That's the car I tried very hard to love, but just couldn't after driving it for 800km or so .It is a great car for driving and defo fits the pocket rocket tag.
There is also an option for more power.
Steering feels dead, gets even downright dangerous at high speed in my opinion, gearbox is mediocre, steering wheel too close to the pedals .
Great fun on twisty B roads, I just wished Fiat had tried a little harder with the Abarth .
as other have stated a £5-£6k 1980"s XR2 or XR3 new price is now £15k with inflation so the modern equivalent is a mini cooper or Fiesta ST . I had lots of XR2"s XR3i"S .Renault 5 turbo, The cars today are much better built than cars from the 1980" and 1990"s so £16k for a fiesta ST does not seem bad
pSynrg said:
Surely the last of the breed:
..and definitely pocket!
Maybe I am slightly biased owning a 2002 172, but I totally agree with this. You would struggle to get more "Bang for you Buck" than one of these. Especially if you go for the cup version. Lighter, no AC, less sound deadening, no ABS or TC. Always smile when I drive mine in anger. ..and definitely pocket!
The issue is insurance.
10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
SteveS Cup said:
The issue is insurance.
10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
Yet a friend of mines son got his insurance down from £2100 to £850 by selling the 4 year old Peugeot 207 and buying a 15 year old BMW 330i10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
You couldn't make that s
t up!currybum said:
Limpet said:
you could still enjoy yourself. The 106 or Saxo were perfectly capable of entertaining you as 1.1 poverty models. The hot versions just added power and grip.
Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
My wife had a 1.1 Saxo when we met, and served a second car until it completely died at 55kmiles.Most small cars today are about as interesting as watching paint dry. Bloated, gutless and idiot proof.
It was without doubt the worst case of automotive apathy and cost cutting I have ever seen, the engine sounded terrible, and drivability was almost non-existent, after 30k miles the engine performance just dropped off of a very low cliff to the point where 60mph was the highest speed you could ever hope to drag out of it.
The handling was woeful, it felt as wallowy as a massive SUV without any of the comfort, under any cornering speed it would just understeer with no warning.
Interior was just as bad, seats were little more that upholstered dining chairs and there was no thought at all as to where the switched might need to be…
It was the result of a design brief of “make it as cheap as possible” with a 20% target stretch added on last minute.
A hateful death trap…why anyone would look back on these with fondness I do not know…it was replaced with a new Fiesta which accounting for inflation was not that much more but was orders of magnitude better in every single way.
Good news is that all the saxo/106’s lest will soon be recycled in to something more useful.
Dr Interceptor said:
The problem is with them they have very limited appeal.
The whole point of the small car like the 108/CityGo/Twingo/Up is that they are cheap to buy, cheap to fuel, cheap to insure and cheap to maintain.
They are popular with very young drivers due to the low insurance, and favoured by parents due to relatively high levels of safety versus an old banger.
Fit a 130bhp engine in, and they will no longer be cheap to insure. That rules out most young drivers under 25, as they simply won't pay £2-3000 to insure a small car.
So, the only people that can run them sensibly are the 25+ age bracket. Problem is by 25 we want more than a 130bhp hatch. Whether its a hotter hatch, sports car, or something else, once you're 25 you can insure some much more interesting metal, so the junior hatch is long forgotten.
Unless you live in a very bad area for insurance claims you'd actually be surprised at what you can insure at a young age.The whole point of the small car like the 108/CityGo/Twingo/Up is that they are cheap to buy, cheap to fuel, cheap to insure and cheap to maintain.
They are popular with very young drivers due to the low insurance, and favoured by parents due to relatively high levels of safety versus an old banger.
Fit a 130bhp engine in, and they will no longer be cheap to insure. That rules out most young drivers under 25, as they simply won't pay £2-3000 to insure a small car.
So, the only people that can run them sensibly are the 25+ age bracket. Problem is by 25 we want more than a 130bhp hatch. Whether its a hotter hatch, sports car, or something else, once you're 25 you can insure some much more interesting metal, so the junior hatch is long forgotten.
I was 20 years old (in 2014) and insured a Renault Clio RenaultSport 200 for £800.00 for the year. Down to £650 now that I am 21.
Pixelpeep7r said:
SteveS Cup said:
The issue is insurance.
10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
Yet a friend of mines son got his insurance down from £2100 to £850 by selling the 4 year old Peugeot 207 and buying a 15 year old BMW 330i10 years ago I had an S1 106 XSI (posh version of the Rallye) with 105bhp as my first car at 17 - proper little pocket rocket. Cost £1400 a year to insure.
At 18 I had an Ibiza Cupra 1.8t with 200bhp - it cost less that £2500 to insure.
At 19 I had a 106 GTI. It was less that £2000 to insure.
You simply can't do that these days. Insurance has gone through the roof and these cars aren't accessible to the crowd who would potentially buy them.
You couldn't make that s
t up!Dot Dot Curve said:
Dr Interceptor said:
The problem is with them they have very limited appeal.
The whole point of the small car like the 108/CityGo/Twingo/Up is that they are cheap to buy, cheap to fuel, cheap to insure and cheap to maintain.
They are popular with very young drivers due to the low insurance, and favoured by parents due to relatively high levels of safety versus an old banger.
Fit a 130bhp engine in, and they will no longer be cheap to insure. That rules out most young drivers under 25, as they simply won't pay £2-3000 to insure a small car.
So, the only people that can run them sensibly are the 25+ age bracket. Problem is by 25 we want more than a 130bhp hatch. Whether its a hotter hatch, sports car, or something else, once you're 25 you can insure some much more interesting metal, so the junior hatch is long forgotten.
Unless you live in a very bad area for insurance claims you'd actually be surprised at what you can insure at a young age.The whole point of the small car like the 108/CityGo/Twingo/Up is that they are cheap to buy, cheap to fuel, cheap to insure and cheap to maintain.
They are popular with very young drivers due to the low insurance, and favoured by parents due to relatively high levels of safety versus an old banger.
Fit a 130bhp engine in, and they will no longer be cheap to insure. That rules out most young drivers under 25, as they simply won't pay £2-3000 to insure a small car.
So, the only people that can run them sensibly are the 25+ age bracket. Problem is by 25 we want more than a 130bhp hatch. Whether its a hotter hatch, sports car, or something else, once you're 25 you can insure some much more interesting metal, so the junior hatch is long forgotten.
I was 20 years old (in 2014) and insured a Renault Clio RenaultSport 200 for £800.00 for the year. Down to £650 now that I am 21.
People moan about the lack of these cars but it's the same story as the GT86, nobody bothers buying them. The most recent examples were the RS Twingo, Rallisport Colt, Panda 100, Brabus ForFour, Yaris T Sport and SR 1.8, Swift Sport. That's a decent selection of mini hot hatches if you ask me. Out of all those listed only the Swift Sport is still going and selling in okay numbers, and despite winning every award under the sun it's still only shifting 1000 units per year.
For what it's worth my Swift Sport cost me £285 to insure a couple of weeks back. I had quotes for under £250 but they were with unheard of companies. Still reasonable IMO.
For what it's worth my Swift Sport cost me £285 to insure a couple of weeks back. I had quotes for under £250 but they were with unheard of companies. Still reasonable IMO.
Love this article I feel the same there is a lack of small performance hatches. Fiesta ST Suzuki Swift are the ones at the moment but they tower over older hot hatches like the GTi 106. Low weight, low gravity centre, no gimmics or extras, small capacity engine with decent BHP = fun. Manufactures don't understand not everyone wants electronic controlled this and that!
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