RE: Delivery miles: Hot hatch bargains

[J4CKO]

Guvernator said:

Never mind all this inflation rubbish, £30k is still £30k, i.e. a lot of money in most peoples books to blow on a hot hatch. Consider that the average wage in the UK is around £26k a year and you can see why there is a lot of talk of cars being too expensive these days. Put it this way, if someone said go out and put £30k of your hard earned cash on a car, I am sure many would baulk at the idea.

However no one actually buys cars outright any more, they just rent them. As the article amply demonstrates, ultra low interest rates and massaged PCP figures mean people on average salaries can "afford" £30k cars because it's not really £30k you are chucking at it, it's "only" £300 a month, this is why manufacturers are able to put the prices up and still sell cars.

Having said all that, I'm rather sad in that I don't actually desire ANY of the cars mentioned in the article. Yes they may all have lots of horsepower and come loaded with toys but none of them excites me. Sleep inducing VAG products, the underachieving GT86\BRZ, the pig ugly BMW (yes even the facelift) and offerings from Ford and Vauxhall, no thanks. The only one to get close in looks and driving fun is the Renault but even that has issues as A) It's a Renault and B) It only comes as a 3 door which severely restricts it's practicality as a family hatchback. In short, despite the fact that a hot hatch would suit my current family car needs down to the ground, there isn't a single one on sale today that would make me part with my hard earned £30k (sorry £300 a month )

If you cant afford one, dont by one is my thinking, Hot Hatches have always been a luxury, aspirational product.

You can wait for things to improve and the manufacturers produce something that you want but I would say, we have never had it so good in term of massively fast, supercar level from 15 years ago performing stuff.

In the meantime, there are plenty of cheaper options, I have a 350Z, that has similar power but wouldnt say which way these lot went but I like it and it has cost me very little, so there is a decent knock on.

[Driver Rider]

Crafty_ said:

What a well timed article... looking at replacing my 8yr old astra vxr.

first of all, the astra. No go for me. 20" wheels, it's 3.5" wider than my car, which will make parking a pain.
The real killer is maintenance - those brembos are going to cost a whacking £1200 when you need to replace discs + pads. Just ridiculous.
Its also a run out model, new Astra by the end of the year, 3 door and presumably a new vxr to follow.
This car has been not nearly as popular as the H. You can get one with the aero pack for £22-23k new.

Have found a 3yr old golf gti ed35. 18k miles, £21k and no warranty.
You can get a brand new base spec gti for £23k from brokers. Not overly worried about the extra spec on an ed35.

To be honest I've never really warmed to Golfs, recently drove the mk7 R. Very fast but it didn't really appeal.
A gti would do everything I need as transport.

So, M135i then. Facelift out on 28th March. I've driven the car and liked it, gives you a little kick in the back that reminds you what you're driving which the golf r did not do. Oh, and the noise...
27700 as reported in the article is expensive, they are available brand new from 25k up from brokers and a Heathrow deal (berrys, who have a very good reputation). My spec comes in at a snip under 6k of list. Brake discs are £90 a side and you can buy a 5 year service pack for £550

Would I be mad to do anything but get the bmw?

Once I've sorted a few things out the M135i will be my next car. I think you'd be mad not to get one straight six, RWD, consumables that a mere mortal can afford and decent service pack.. I've got a GTI mk5 it's a nice car my first "proper car" but it never has gotten under my skin. I find VAG group cars very efficient but not properly exciting. I know the BMW has flaws but I feel it adds to draw. I've driven a few rear wheel cars and it just feels right. I like a car wriggling from the back!

Just do it mate!

If you get one option get limited diff from bmw, sports exhaust, zf, adaptive dampers. so that's four lol.

[Driver Rider]

Crafty_ said:

What a well timed article... looking at replacing my 8yr old astra vxr.

first of all, the astra. No go for me. 20" wheels, it's 3.5" wider than my car, which will make parking a pain.
The real killer is maintenance - those brembos are going to cost a whacking £1200 when you need to replace discs + pads. Just ridiculous.
Its also a run out model, new Astra by the end of the year, 3 door and presumably a new vxr to follow.
This car has been not nearly as popular as the H. You can get one with the aero pack for £22-23k new.

Have found a 3yr old golf gti ed35. 18k miles, £21k and no warranty.
You can get a brand new base spec gti for £23k from brokers. Not overly worried about the extra spec on an ed35.

To be honest I've never really warmed to Golfs, recently drove the mk7 R. Very fast but it didn't really appeal.
A gti would do everything I need as transport.

So, M135i then. Facelift out on 28th March. I've driven the car and liked it, gives you a little kick in the back that reminds you what you're driving which the golf r did not do. Oh, and the noise...
27700 as reported in the article is expensive, they are available brand new from 25k up from brokers and a Heathrow deal (berrys, who have a very good reputation). My spec comes in at a snip under 6k of list. Brake discs are £90 a side and you can buy a 5 year service pack for £550

Would I be mad to do anything but get the bmw?

Once I've sorted a few things out the M135i will be my next car. I think you'd be mad not to get one straight six, RWD, consumables that a mere mortal can afford and decent service pack.. I've got a GTI mk5 it's a nice car my first "proper car" but it never has gotten under my skin. I find VAG group cars very efficient but not properly exciting. I know the BMW has flaws but I feel it adds to draw. I've driven a few rear wheel cars and it just feels right. I like a car wriggling from the back!

Just do it mate!

If you get one option get limited diff from bmw, sports exhaust, zf, adaptive dampers. so that's four lol.

[vxsmithers]

Oz83 said:

vxsmithers said:

Pixelpeep7r said:

hotchy said:

the last type R was only 15k.

No, it wasn't

it was £15,995 in 2001 (16,995 if you wanted AC)

2001?! it is now 2014

THAT WAS THIRTEEN YEARS AGO!!!

fuel was 83.5p per litre back then too.

I paid 14K for mine in 2004, brand new with aircon. Unless inflation has been sat at 7.5% p.a. and I haven't noticed, that is not a comparable price - petrol price is irrelevant due to the monumental amount of tax on it which a manufacturer would not pay to produce a car (unless they use petrol to power their factories)

You are being conned into thinking this is normal

Nobody is being conned. Honda aren't trying to sell you the same car are they!?

The new car is loaded with stuff that the EP3 didn't have, not to mention the increased costs of meeting modern safety regs, emissions requirements, matching German (perceived) build quality and more importantly it's performance is in a completely different league. I bet with the amount of testing and pissing around they have been doing at the ring for the last 3 years, they are probably selling them at a loss for £30K.

Yes it's more expensive, but it's more car!

But they are selling it as the same thing - a hot hatch, and they did R&D on previous cars which costs lots of money too... It doesn't need all that extra ste. The reason it needs 300bhp is probably because it weighs 50% more (I can't be arsed to check if that's true but it probably is)

I'm sure its very nice, but for me, the ethos of a hot hatch (and I've had a few) was a light good handling fun car that is good to drive - you don't need all the gizmos.. That's what a family car is for

Maybe I'm just getting old

[Martin_M]

I had a new M135i for a year (bought in 2013) and whilst it had a great engine and was really well built, I found it all a bit underwhelming in the end. Yes it was incredibly fast but I didn't find it particularly 'fun' as such and it looked too much like all of the other models in the range. For £400 per month on the pcp alone (I purchased before the excellent lease deals etc.) I was left wanting more enjoyment for my money.

I traded it in for a cheaper Abarth 595 Competizione as I now commute by train due to a new job. Performance and quality obviously don't match the BMW but it's a lot of fun to drive and offers a rawer driving experience which I like. I'm only 6 months in however and now I'm thinking about the new Type R. I also like the WRX STI but I hate the idea of paying £500 a year in tax for a car that does less than 30mpg. I would also love to try a new Mini Cooper S JCW or Paceman! Arghhhh!
I agree with those who are saying that the price of some hot hatches are now a tad excessive.

[neil1jnr]

Many will disagree but in my eyes the Astra VXR is by far the nicest looking car there, it just looks brilliant.

Give me the VXR styling with the Megane's chassis and the BMW's engine...

[Crafty_]

Bring brutally honest I prefer the old astra.
I've had my money's worth out of mine. I've put a headlight bulb and a battery in it. That's it. The interior is no worse than many new cars and the torque across the revs is great.

But I've done the vxr thing, getting a bit old now to be running round in a bright blue astra.

The J hasn't really been a success because they listened to all the critics of the H and made a golf. Problem is (Rightly or wrongly) an astra doesn't have the reputation of a golf, also there are people who don't want a golf, much less an imitation of one.

For the next one they should drop the silly 20" wheels, put it on 18s, look at cost of ownership and ditch the M series gearbox and go back to getrags (the old f20/f28s were ok). I think they also need an auto of some description to keep up. They may need to go 4wd to be able to compete. Maybe they should do as they did with cavalier gsi back in the day and offer 2wd & 4wd.

[Pixelpeep7r]

Fox- said:

Pixelpeep7r said:

No, it wasn't

it was £15,995 in 2001 (16,995 if you wanted AC)

2001?! it is now 2014

THAT WAS THIRTEEN YEARS AGO!!!

Adjusted for inflation that is £23500 today.

Your point is what?

Edited by Fox- on Thursday 12th March 20:32

it had 200bhp and not much else.

not dissimilar to the current Fiesta ST which has an RRP of £16,995

that would make todays offerings of the same BETTER value wouldn't it.

[zed4]

Wow, look at the state of this thing!! It’s comically ugly. Who would ever want to own that!!

[Martin_Hx]

The Juke has kinda warmed on me, but my work colleague had a rental one for a few days and the interior was a sea of horrible plastic.

The white one above has hideous wheels but apart from that it isn't too bad, i wouldn't actually use my own money to buy one though, im sure my wife would drive it, definitely aimed at women

[zed4]

Maybe. I still think the front end is a mess, it has so many different lights and the LED DRL are horrific. It’s so messy at the front, so many angles, grilles, textures, colours!

[iloveboost]

Matt Bird said:

I hate to be that guy but it's 2015... Also worth bearing in mind for those grumbling about the Honda that the new Civic Type R is 310hp against 200 previously. I would also expect it will be a whole lot better, it's been long enough!

I agree. It's nostalgia that's all. For some reason the further away things are in your mind, the better they seem! £16K in 2001 is £23,500 in todays money. If you compare a modern Focus ST to a 2001 Civic Type R it's clearly a better car overall. Plus the Civic Type R was relatively cheap for a 200-ish hp hot hatch when it launched, which is why it was so popular. It's Amazing how they've held their value because of their exciting reputation, as many similar hot hatches haven't.
The modern comparable car isn't a Focus ST though, it's a Fiesta ST and that's 'only' £16,995.
83p in 2001 is £1.22 a litre in 2015, so petrol and diesel are reasonably priced right now.

Edited by iloveboost on Friday 13th March 13:55

[Martin_Hx]

zed4 said:

Maybe. I still think the front end is a mess, it has so many different lights and the LED DRL are horrific. It’s so messy at the front, so many angles, grilles, textures, colours!

I have to agree, the 3 tiers of lights certainly do it no favors!

[Matt Bird]

emicen said:

Pixelpeep7r said:

emicen said:

Nismo Joke at 20 grand, bargain.
Put down the glue and back away from the keyboard.

oh give it a fking rest will you lot. Do some research - its HOW MUCH STUFF COSTS NOW!

If you want to take a minute from trying to dominate the entire thread with your almighty opinion, try reading it again.

Here's a couple of clues; I didnt say anything about the prices of any of the other hot hatches, the second word in my statement wasnt an autocorrect.

Someone wants to spend £30k on a new CTR, batter in, I have a friend about to pull the trigger on one. Golf R, same. Dropping north of £20k on a Joke because they slapped some red stripes, bucket seats and "racing heritage" twaddle on it, can only really be attributed to substance abuse.

We've had a Juke NISMO RS on test this week actually. I didn't want to like it but the changes are certainly more than stripes and seats! Far, far more capable and enjoyable than you might expect. Certainly not cheap but didn't feel ludicrously poor value for money given the drive. Full test soon (shameless self-promo alert!).


Matt

[blade7]

Pixelpeep7r said:

it had 200bhp and not much else.

not dissimilar to the current Fiesta ST which has an RRP of £16,995

that would make todays offerings of the same BETTER value wouldn't it.

The last time I checked you could source a new Fiesta ST1 for around £14.5k.

[TerryCTR]

Gandahar said:

Head to head, original UK Integra R which is the grand daddy of all type R's v the latest car.

Not sure about that one, the ep3 was easily quicker and if you want to talk ultimate type R it was for sure the FD2 followed by the DC5

[RedSwede]

vxsmithers said:

But they are selling it as the same thing - a hot hatch, and they did R&D on previous cars which costs lots of money too... It doesn't need all that extra ste. The reason it needs 300bhp is probably because it weighs 50% more (I can't be arsed to check if that's true but it probably is)

I'm sure its very nice, but for me, the ethos of a hot hatch (and I've had a few) was a light good handling fun car that is good to drive - you don't need all the gizmos.. That's what a family car is for

Maybe I'm just getting old

Not to pick on one person here, but it is a little frustrating to read all these comments on price every time. Yes, it is more money and less affordable. But some things have to be said:
1. Inflation is significant. Try using one of the online calculators to see just how much in todays prices your £5k-in-1982 XR3 would be.
2. This car is in a different league in competence (luxury and performance) to any of its direct predecessors. Yes, even adjusted for inflation it is more expensive, but its not really comparable. E.g. - the £15k in 2001 Civic works out at ~£21K now. A 1.8T Leon FR is ~£21k now. Cars are not more expensive now, like for like.
3. Don't take your haggled down, no option, ex-demo price from 2001, round it down to the nearest grand, then look at the list price today and add a few k for what will be called "essential" options (probably not even available as options on an S-Class in 2001) and say "my golly gosh, how expensive is that. You would have to be lobotomised to even think of buying that"
4. When you say you want a simple, lower powered car, thats fine. You do not want a car at this end of the market, that is why it looks expensive. Having the same badge as something before does not mean the car is equal to anything wearing the badge before. Manufacturers shift with the market.
5. PCP vs Buying. It is just a different way of skinning a cat. I have bought cars outright, I have financed. It all depends on how the deal works out and your particular situation at the time. Yes, people sometimes use finance to stretch harder than they should, but also people sometimes use cash when there are many better things to be doing with it.

[Crafty_]

Disagree on your first two points, I've done the sums.
2007 astra £16k
2014 value of that is 19k.
There are no new Astras for 19k.

The equivalent new car in base spec form is 23k (list is about 28k), add the options to level it up, now 25k, about 3 times inflation.

Use the list prices and it works out the same. Cars have gotten expensive. 20 grand buys you very little under 4 years old.

[RedSwede]

Crafty_ said:

Disagree on your first two points, I've done the sums.
2007 astra £16k
2014 value of that is 19k.
There are no new Astras for 19k.

The equivalent new car in base spec form is 23k (list is about 28k), add the options to level it up, now 25k, about 3 times inflation.

Use the list prices and it works out the same. Cars have gotten expensive. 20 grand buys you very little under 4 years old.

I'm not too sure of those numbers give the best comparison - but I agree there the latest VXR is less affordable than the outgoing one. I don't know Astras inside out, but I have a hard time imagining you need to spec up a base 2015 car to match a base 2007 car. I found the Astra at 22k online, so compare to your inflation-adjusted 19k, about 15% less affordable.

But it boils down to that the new VXR is half a notch up from the old one - it isn't the same car just brought up to date a little. It is substantially larger (not saying that is good, or otherwise), has a lot more power, trick suspension geometry, brembo brakes, fancy diff, etc etc. A 200BHP Astra is £16k online today - OK, thats a step down, but kid of implies that something in the middle would be ~£19k. And there we have a car that would be very much the equivalent of the old VXR at a price very much the same, inflation adjusted.

I still don't think that there is a vast difference in car prices today and a few years ago. It just isn't the case that VXR=VXR or Type R = Type R

[Crafty_]

My car has wheel upgrade, leather, park sensors, AFL (xenon lights), all of which need to be added to a current model to bring it to the same spec, hence the 25k. List price of mine was 21-22k, thats going to be a list of over £30k..

If you look at civic type Rs the same thing will happen, they were quite cheap for an EP3, similar money to the astra, the new one will be £30k.

I don't see why you can't go VXR = VXR, its not like you can buy a lesser model now and get the same power/performance/style etc. Go take a 2005 3 series and compare to today maybe.