RE: Toyota GT86 Aero: Review
Discussion
Like many I've followed the whole GT86 thing from the early days. Yes I want more power, but I'd still be interested in driving the standard model to see how I got on with it.
I think one of the issues is that even though the engine has a decent output for a 2.0 NA motor, I don't think I've read anywhere that it's a particularly'nice' or 'characterful' power plant. The K20a and B18c in their respective Type R's had similar power/torque stats and were hauling around a similar weight - but they were great engines to drive, to rev out to the limiter; they helped make the drive enjoyable. You could have those motors in something otherwise rubbish to drive and it'd still be fun. From what I've read, it doesn't seem like the 4U-GSE gives a similar feeling or satisfaction.
I think one of the issues is that even though the engine has a decent output for a 2.0 NA motor, I don't think I've read anywhere that it's a particularly'nice' or 'characterful' power plant. The K20a and B18c in their respective Type R's had similar power/torque stats and were hauling around a similar weight - but they were great engines to drive, to rev out to the limiter; they helped make the drive enjoyable. You could have those motors in something otherwise rubbish to drive and it'd still be fun. From what I've read, it doesn't seem like the 4U-GSE gives a similar feeling or satisfaction.
ahenners said:
nearly get its arse handed to it by a Vectra (not a VXR, probably a diesel) at the traffic light Grand Prix last night
I'm not quite sure what that means, but lots of cars and even SUVs are quite fast in a straight line.If many cars are now fast, does that now make many cars slow?
ahenners said:
Saw one of these nearly get its arse handed to it by a Vectra (not a VXR, probably a diesel) at the traffic light Grand Prix last night.
This stuff always makes me laugh. " I saw X beat <insert much more expensive/powerful car here> at the traffic light grand prix." Maybe, just maybe, the other bloke wasn't trying? There'll be some girl in a beat-up old Clio near me telling her mates how she handed an Elise it's arse and all Lotus are s
t but there wasn't a lot of point nailing it when the next lights are 200 yards away.Often seems to be Golf R's and 911 Turbos in threads over the last year. You might think the VW drivers are a bit insecure...
s m said:
It is interesting how things have changed since the late 80s. Stuff like the Manta and Capri were also outperformed by the hot hatches of their times, maybe not by so much as today in pure percentage terms, but certainly they weren't the last word in performance.
Even the Manta in its last full year of production outsold the GT86/BRZ so I guess tastes have changed towards coupes, no matter how good the handling
Maybe a different engine(s) as an option as with the old 80s cars would give a halo effect/improve sales. Not cheap to do though if there's no confidence of sales success
In the 80s though those were probably the cars to be seen in. Nowadays you're direct comparison is probably a base spec BMW or audi coupe vs the hot hatch and I'd be surprised if the coupe wasn't the better seller.Even the Manta in its last full year of production outsold the GT86/BRZ so I guess tastes have changed towards coupes, no matter how good the handling
Maybe a different engine(s) as an option as with the old 80s cars would give a halo effect/improve sales. Not cheap to do though if there's no confidence of sales success
Edited by s m on Friday 13th March 17:59
In a complete reversal I'd bet the audi coupe at the time (if there was one when the manta/Capri were around) would be more of the left field choice like the gt86.
I'd love to try a gt86 but not sure if I'd ever buy one, not for the power but it doesn't completely grab me. Would have to be a spectacular drive to keep me away from a similarly priced mx5.
Steve_F said:
s m said:
It is interesting how things have changed since the late 80s. Stuff like the Manta and Capri were also outperformed by the hot hatches of their times, maybe not by so much as today in pure percentage terms, but certainly they weren't the last word in performance.
Even the Manta in its last full year of production outsold the GT86/BRZ so I guess tastes have changed towards coupes, no matter how good the handling
Maybe a different engine(s) as an option as with the old 80s cars would give a halo effect/improve sales. Not cheap to do though if there's no confidence of sales success
In the 80s though those were probably the cars to be seen in. Nowadays you're direct comparison is probably a base spec BMW or audi coupe vs the hot hatch and I'd be surprised if the coupe wasn't the better seller.Even the Manta in its last full year of production outsold the GT86/BRZ so I guess tastes have changed towards coupes, no matter how good the handling
Maybe a different engine(s) as an option as with the old 80s cars would give a halo effect/improve sales. Not cheap to do though if there's no confidence of sales success
Edited by s m on Friday 13th March 17:59
In a complete reversal I'd bet the audi coupe at the time (if there was one when the manta/Capri were around) would be more of the left field choice like the gt86.
I'd love to try a gt86 but not sure if I'd ever buy one, not for the power but it doesn't completely grab me. Would have to be a spectacular drive to keep me away from a similarly priced mx5.
There was indeed an Audi Coupe out back then - I wouldn't personally have classed it like the old Manta or AE86 though. It had a more mature image - generally bought by older people
I'm torn by this car. Part of me feels a little ashamed not accepting it when it's all drivers have cried for in a car in this market, but the other part of me just doesn't love it, or couldn't.
Everything that was defined in the brief has been successfully implemented but the crux for me is that all of those things are quite specific, 'passion' based elements to driving, its enjoyment and execution. The way the car looks both outside and inside isn't anything most could feel passionate about, or click with like the dynamics. And as a product it needs to provide that connection across the package.
Just because this is a sports car with a different angle on its dynamics, one we can very much respect, doesn't mean that it can look tacky inside and out. You can easily make those sacrifices on the used market for a fraction of the price, and this car sells to a market that inherently know their game there and will evaluate the car as such. It's just not a rounded product for most people.
Everything that was defined in the brief has been successfully implemented but the crux for me is that all of those things are quite specific, 'passion' based elements to driving, its enjoyment and execution. The way the car looks both outside and inside isn't anything most could feel passionate about, or click with like the dynamics. And as a product it needs to provide that connection across the package.
Just because this is a sports car with a different angle on its dynamics, one we can very much respect, doesn't mean that it can look tacky inside and out. You can easily make those sacrifices on the used market for a fraction of the price, and this car sells to a market that inherently know their game there and will evaluate the car as such. It's just not a rounded product for most people.
I've owned a GT86 for a couple of years and have a few tweeks done but still on the standard tyres. It makes me laugh when people go on about the performance. It's no rocket ship but it's fine. Last year I took mine on track at a local sprint. I went three times and they are the only times I've ever driven my own car on track so I'm no driving god. Below is a list of cars the GT86 was quicker than (and some are fully track prepared). Sorry about the order as they are from a variety of classes:-
Toyota GT86 - 1'33.4
Sylva Striker-1'38.5
Alfa Romeo GT Junior – 1’34.2
MK1 MX5 - 1’35.1
MK1 MX5 – 1’35.6
BMW E30 (E36 328 power) - 1'33.7
Renault Clio 172 - 1'33.9
S2 Pug 106 rallye - 1'34.5
Saxo VTS – 1’34.9
Corsa B - 1'35.7
Saxo VTR – 1’35.7
Caterham Roadsports - 1'34.5
Caterham Roadsports - 1'36.2
TVR S3 - 1'35.1
TVR Tuscan - TVR Tuscan-1'40.2
TVR Griffith-1'41.4
TVR Chimaera 4.0 – 1’42.9
Triumph Spitfire –1’49.1
Nissan 350Z - 1'33.4
Mitsubishi 3000GTO - 1'35.5
Audi TTRS - 1'35.6
Subaru Impreza - 1'36.1
Audi TT - 1'36.7
Porsche Boxster - 1'38.0
E90 BMW 330i - 1'39.1
Land Rover Discovery V8 - 2'04
Mini Cooper S - 1'35.5
R56 Mini Cooper S Mayfair - 1'37.4
R53 Mini Cooper S JCW - 1'41.2
Skoda Octavia VRS -1'40.3
Renault Clio 197 - 1'34.7
Ford Fiesta ST- 1'34.9
Renault Clio 172 - 1'35.0
Renault Clio 182 – 1’35.3
MK1 Mazda MX5 - 1'35.6
MK2 Mazda MX5 - 1'36.5
Volvo 340 - 1'36.7
MK2 Mazda MX5 – 1’37.0
Renault Clio 172 - 1'37.4
Subaru BRZ -1'38.7
Toyota MR2 Convertible - 1'39.7
Toyota Celica –1’40.3
Toyota MR2 – 1’52.3
106 rallye – 1’33.5
MK1 Mx5 - 1'36.5
BMW I3 - 1'37.7
Honda Civic Ek4 –1’39.0
Suzuki Ignis Sport–1’41.8
Ford Festa Zetec S – 1’41.8
Ford Fiesta Zetec S–1’42.1
Fiat Punto 1.4 - 1'42.5
Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 - 1'44.1
Obviously all these times were not set on the same day and so some would have had different weather conditions affecting them and I have no idea what the experience of each driver is but I think it makes the point.
Toyota GT86 - 1'33.4
Sylva Striker-1'38.5
Alfa Romeo GT Junior – 1’34.2
MK1 MX5 - 1’35.1
MK1 MX5 – 1’35.6
BMW E30 (E36 328 power) - 1'33.7
Renault Clio 172 - 1'33.9
S2 Pug 106 rallye - 1'34.5
Saxo VTS – 1’34.9
Corsa B - 1'35.7
Saxo VTR – 1’35.7
Caterham Roadsports - 1'34.5
Caterham Roadsports - 1'36.2
TVR S3 - 1'35.1
TVR Tuscan - TVR Tuscan-1'40.2
TVR Griffith-1'41.4
TVR Chimaera 4.0 – 1’42.9
Triumph Spitfire –1’49.1
Nissan 350Z - 1'33.4
Mitsubishi 3000GTO - 1'35.5
Audi TTRS - 1'35.6
Subaru Impreza - 1'36.1
Audi TT - 1'36.7
Porsche Boxster - 1'38.0
E90 BMW 330i - 1'39.1
Land Rover Discovery V8 - 2'04
Mini Cooper S - 1'35.5
R56 Mini Cooper S Mayfair - 1'37.4
R53 Mini Cooper S JCW - 1'41.2
Skoda Octavia VRS -1'40.3
Renault Clio 197 - 1'34.7
Ford Fiesta ST- 1'34.9
Renault Clio 172 - 1'35.0
Renault Clio 182 – 1’35.3
MK1 Mazda MX5 - 1'35.6
MK2 Mazda MX5 - 1'36.5
Volvo 340 - 1'36.7
MK2 Mazda MX5 – 1’37.0
Renault Clio 172 - 1'37.4
Subaru BRZ -1'38.7
Toyota MR2 Convertible - 1'39.7
Toyota Celica –1’40.3
Toyota MR2 – 1’52.3
106 rallye – 1’33.5
MK1 Mx5 - 1'36.5
BMW I3 - 1'37.7
Honda Civic Ek4 –1’39.0
Suzuki Ignis Sport–1’41.8
Ford Festa Zetec S – 1’41.8
Ford Fiesta Zetec S–1’42.1
Fiat Punto 1.4 - 1'42.5
Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 - 1'44.1
Obviously all these times were not set on the same day and so some would have had different weather conditions affecting them and I have no idea what the experience of each driver is but I think it makes the point.
Edited by DeaconFrost on Saturday 14th March 18:51
I think the point is that it's not just about the potential performance of what car you buy. I see a fair bit of expensive/exotic vehicles being bimbled and/or erratically slowly driven around the Cheshire Belt.
I think a lot of people would like a good handling sports car, but get hung up about what their "image" will be if they are seen to be driving a car with no impressive stats or lose a traffic lights GP to a non-"sports" car.
-I might have done years ago, but not any more and I'm only in my 30s.
I think a lot of people would like a good handling sports car, but get hung up about what their "image" will be if they are seen to be driving a car with no impressive stats or lose a traffic lights GP to a non-"sports" car.
-I might have done years ago, but not any more and I'm only in my 30s.
My point was the stats of a car don't tell the whole story. Lots of the cars in the post I made about the sprint times are faster on paper but when compared on the same track were not quicker. The GT86 is no rocket ship but it's no where near as bad as some people are trying to make out.
DeaconFrost said:
My point was the stats of a car don't tell the whole story. Lots of the cars in the post I made about the sprint times are faster on paper but when compared on the same track were not quicker. The GT86 is no rocket ship but it's no where near as bad as some people are trying to make out.
I think many people understood you. Most people look at acceleration stats for the road rat race though.
Sadly, They are not interested in the subtlty of their own experiences, but the image of them perceived by others.
Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 14th March 19:38
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