The End of Diesels is here... FT article
Discussion
MrBarry123 said:
But isn't the problem only with those cars that don't have a DPF?
Why don't we therefore give owners of such cars two options: 1) have a DPF installed and allow a tax break of sorts as a thank you or 2) don't have a DPF installed but pay additional tax as a result.
Because you 'just fit a DPF'? Why don't we therefore give owners of such cars two options: 1) have a DPF installed and allow a tax break of sorts as a thank you or 2) don't have a DPF installed but pay additional tax as a result.
Dr Jekyll said:
Just because you can smell something doesn't mean it causes health problems. London's air is cleaner than it's been for centuries and still getting better, anyone healthy enough to walk about has nothing to worry about.
It doesn't smell, it burns and the effect of NOx on lungs and heart is fairly well established I believe.And right on cue, a smog cloud of "stale diesel" arrives from Europe!
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19...
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19...
Jesus, never in my life did I realise that there were quite so many lame brains on PH.
As pistonheads all that should be bothering us is what sort of motion lotion best fits the vehicle(s) we wish to own and drive.
All this hate for Diesel is utterly stupid, almost as stupid as the hate for anything that isn't powered by petrol or diesel.
What do you need your car to do? Work that out and then you can work out what power unit is best for you.
As for the political/science football it is all bulls
t and mirrors. Everything is safe and everything is harmful I one way or another. They have milked the 'Petrol is bad' line to death and have run out of taxes to add to that party so now have moved on to the Diesels. In 10-15 years it will be the petrol hybrids that will be the priors...
Mean time just look at all options and pick the best current one for you, remembering that your choice is your choice, and not necessarily the best thing for your neighbour.
As pistonheads all that should be bothering us is what sort of motion lotion best fits the vehicle(s) we wish to own and drive.
All this hate for Diesel is utterly stupid, almost as stupid as the hate for anything that isn't powered by petrol or diesel.
What do you need your car to do? Work that out and then you can work out what power unit is best for you.
As for the political/science football it is all bulls
t and mirrors. Everything is safe and everything is harmful I one way or another. They have milked the 'Petrol is bad' line to death and have run out of taxes to add to that party so now have moved on to the Diesels. In 10-15 years it will be the petrol hybrids that will be the priors...Mean time just look at all options and pick the best current one for you, remembering that your choice is your choice, and not necessarily the best thing for your neighbour.
Lil'RedGTO said:
I was less surprised by the suggestion that diesels are about to be progressively regulated/taxed off the roads than I was by the revelation that 81% of BMW sales in Europe are diesels.
Interesting, plus the fact that the fuel is cheaper all over Europe.Yep, the end is nigh.
Lil'RedGTO said:
And right on cue, a smog cloud of "stale diesel" arrives from Europe!
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19...
That's mostly industrial pollution, don't be so gullible.http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/mar/19...
Fastdruid said:
MysteryLemon said:
We shouldn't be taxing cars on any kind of emissions rating. It serves no purpose what so ever. VED should be scrapped and have the tax on fuel upped slightly to compensate. The more you use your car, the more you pay in Tax.
VED should be based on weight/size. Something like:
Sub 500 Kg - free
501-750 Kg - £25
751-1000 Kg - £50
1001-1125Kg - £75
1126-1250Kg - £100
1251-1375Kg - £125
1375-1500Kg - £150
1501-2000Kg - £200
2001+ Kg - £500
CO2/pollution tax should be added to fuel.
king joking, right? Why the massive jump from 2 ton to 2 ton+?scarble said:
It doesn't smell, it burns and the effect of NOx on lungs and heart is fairly well established I believe.
There is no significant real world proof that diesel is dangerously worse than petrol i.e. labs, models, small statistical correlation blah blah. Until this latest politically motivated contrived assault on diesel by paid for research to give the required answer, petrol was regarded as worse for health on balance (and that's nothing to do with co2).I happen to be a fully qualified mechanic so i know all the st that is fitted to a diesel to keep them clean I'm sure we all know of the DPF woes, fuel pump and injector problems because they have to run at such ludicrous tolerances to help meet the emissions regs not to mention crap DMF's, turbos that seem to lunch themselves for no reason and just the fact that diesels stink, sound st, and should be in tractor's, and lorries.
t that is fitted to a diesel to keep them clean I'm sure we all know of the DPF woes, fuel pump and injector problems because they have to run at such ludicrous tolerances to help meet the emissions regs not to mention crap DMF's, turbos that seem to lunch themselves for no reason and just the fact that diesels stink, sound st, and should be in tractor's, and lorries. I can't see it not anytime soon. Even a petrol eco turbo still struggles to return 50+mpg so fleet drivers aren't going to shift yet.
Tax bands based totally on CO2 should never have gone through but guess what John Prescott and Winky Brown looked at it and sold that part of our quota to the Chinese as part of the post Kyoto arrangements.
Tax bands based totally on CO2 should never have gone through but guess what John Prescott and Winky Brown looked at it and sold that part of our quota to the Chinese as part of the post Kyoto arrangements.
Monty Python said:
No mention of articulated lorries and buses, which throw out more pollution due to lack of particulate filters and so on.
As for economy, petrol engines may have made some progress but they're still 30-40% behind when you compare like-for-like.
I'm an automotive engineer working on commercial vehicles - buses. The emissions regulations at Euro 6 for these vehicles are spectacularly tight. New, diesel powered buses unequivocally do NOT belch out black smoke anymore. It's impressive. The emissions controls are very extensive. The running joke is that nowadays you buy an exhaust system, and get an engine thrown in for free. As for economy, petrol engines may have made some progress but they're still 30-40% behind when you compare like-for-like.
Freely admit though - this doesn't make any difference to all the older vehicles in use.
marmitemania said:
Fastdruid said:
MysteryLemon said:
We shouldn't be taxing cars on any kind of emissions rating. It serves no purpose what so ever. VED should be scrapped and have the tax on fuel upped slightly to compensate. The more you use your car, the more you pay in Tax.
VED should be based on weight/size. Something like:
Sub 500 Kg - free
501-750 Kg - £25
751-1000 Kg - £50
1001-1125Kg - £75
1126-1250Kg - £100
1251-1375Kg - £125
1375-1500Kg - £150
1501-2000Kg - £200
2001+ Kg - £500
CO2/pollution tax should be added to fuel.
king joking, right? Why the massive jump from 2 ton to 2 ton+?Think of it as a 4x4 tax.
Fastdruid said:
Nope. Lightness FTW. Encouraging smaller lighter cars and 2 tonnes is plenty. Think of it as a 4x4 tax.
I like that. Would also help crash compatibility, the SUV plague has an impact (harr harr) on small car weight as well...As to the politics involved: at least over here, every time they mess with car taxation / pollution laws, it just an exercise in economic development -- disguised as an environmental improvement plan. Must be similar in the UK.
marmitemania said:
I happen to be a fully qualified mechanic so i know all the st that is fitted to a diesel to keep them clean I'm sure we all know of the DPF woes, fuel pump and injector problems because they have to run at such ludicrous tolerances to help meet the emissions regs not to mention crap DMF's, turbos that seem to lunch themselves for no reason and just the fact that diesels stink, sound st, and should be in tractor's, and lorries.
Just remember that because petrols don't stink doesn't meant they can't be worse. If the petrol engine's emissions equipment isn't working, the carbon monoxide which petrol produce, which cannot be seen or smelt, can kill you stone dead very quickly in the wrong circumstances.t that is fitted to a diesel to keep them clean I'm sure we all know of the DPF woes, fuel pump and injector problems because they have to run at such ludicrous tolerances to help meet the emissions regs not to mention crap DMF's, turbos that seem to lunch themselves for no reason and just the fact that diesels stink, sound st, and should be in tractor's, and lorries. You'll never have to worry about that with a diesel. You'll never notice the benzene in the petrol either.
The pubic truly do believe that if the pollution can be seen or smelled then it must be worse. There'll never be much that can be done about that.
heebeegeetee said:
The pubic truly do believe that if the pollution can be seen or smelled then it must be worse. There'll never be much that can be done about that.
Nothing's new under the sun.Whether diesels are good or bad, at the moment there are few viable alternatives to diesel HGV's or vans for freight around cities. I'm not sure that demonising their drivers is going to achieve much for air quality other than a distinct whiff of discontent- if tax on diesel were to be doubled (hypothetically), what's an HGV driver to do instead? Carry 7.5 tonnes of supermarket goods around a city by rickshaw? All that will happen is that the same diesel will be burnt and operators will either go bust or pass the cost onto their customers.
Perhaps we need to work on viable alternatives or reconsider how goods are carried between and within cities. But until we do, we need to make sure we're not destroying the infrastructure that feeds us.
heebeegeetee said:
Lil'RedGTO said:
I was less surprised by the suggestion that diesels are about to be progressively regulated/taxed off the roads than I was by the revelation that 81% of BMW sales in Europe are diesels.
Interesting, plus the fact that the fuel is cheaper all over Europe.Yep, the end is nigh.
It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the next UK Government does to meet its air quality targets.
Wood smoke can be seen and smelt, and quite a few people like it, especially when some of the food they eat is smoked.
But as an earlier poster pointed out, Just about everything we, buy, eat, use, shift around, does so using diesel engines.
They use diesel engines rather than petrol, for reasons that have been worked out over many decades.
If we got rid of all diesel cars, there would still be huge numbers of diesel engine vehicles on our roads, so those that don't like diesels will STILL have to put up with them. They are not going to go away, until something better for purpose has been invented. Currently, nothing has been.
But as an earlier poster pointed out, Just about everything we, buy, eat, use, shift around, does so using diesel engines.
They use diesel engines rather than petrol, for reasons that have been worked out over many decades.
If we got rid of all diesel cars, there would still be huge numbers of diesel engine vehicles on our roads, so those that don't like diesels will STILL have to put up with them. They are not going to go away, until something better for purpose has been invented. Currently, nothing has been.
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