RE: Haldex - the truth!
Discussion
Roger Irrelevant said:
RobM77 said:
daveco said:
Only a small minority of us anoraks actually care what wheels are driven.
I'd challenge that. I think it's only a small minority of anoraks who are able to sketch the above chassis layouts and explain the physics and engineering involved. However, I reckon quite a significant number of people every day climb out of an Audi into a BMW on a test drive and feel an immediate difference, it's just that they can't describe what it is (a BMW salesman once told me this and I can well believe it). BMW's claim regarding the percentage of people who knew their 1 series was rear drive was, if it was a simple question as described, not very useful for informing their decision over their FWD MPV thing. I don't know the washing machine tech that makes my new washing machine better than the old one, and I don't care either, but I like it and can see the benefits!Roger Irrelevant said:
[
Nah I'm with Dave on this one, I reckon that the vast majority of people who buy a BMW couldn't give two hoots whether it's RWD or what it drives like, they buy it because it's a BMW and for all that conveys. .
bNah I'm with Dave on this one, I reckon that the vast majority of people who buy a BMW couldn't give two hoots whether it's RWD or what it drives like, they buy it because it's a BMW and for all that conveys. .
ks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.SS7
Do you really believe that or am I missing a woosh parrot? I really hope it's the latter. Max_Torque said:
Indeed, you can tune the chassis dynamics to make the car have any dynamic trait you want, but it's the STATIC mass distribution that sets the base handling. If you use heafty springs or ARB's to dynamically transfer that weight around, all you do is end up with a great non linearity in the vehicles response. Having a base 50:50 dsitribution means the difference between the static and dynamic performance is small and hence the car generally will drive with a good basic stability, and yet when provoked, with build towards the tyres slip limits in a progressive fashion.
If you have a say 70:30 distribuition, you can get to 50:50 dynamically, but any change in those dynamic conditions changes the balance. Take something like a Scooby, which has a fundamentally poor mass distribution, they don't handle well in extremis precisely because the mass is being used so dynamically.
I know the weight distribution plays a big part in determining the handling balance, but the Porsche 911 evolved to handle really well despite it having a big weight distribution imbalance, so why not an AWD car? I know that under acceleration it will understeer more because some of the power is going to the wrong end, but couldn't you give it wider front than rear tyres and decent multi-link or wishbone front suspension? Like a 911 Turbo in reverse!If you have a say 70:30 distribuition, you can get to 50:50 dynamically, but any change in those dynamic conditions changes the balance. Take something like a Scooby, which has a fundamentally poor mass distribution, they don't handle well in extremis precisely because the mass is being used so dynamically.
Max_Torque said:
Front Longitudinal, rwd:
Front Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
Why don't manufacturers do a FWD/AWD transverse engined car with the gearbox and diff in front of the engine? Is it just because they want more interior space, or is it because you'd get worse traction with FWD?Front Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
Edited by iloveboost on Wednesday 25th March 19:08
shoestring7 said:
bks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.
SS7
There was a survey done a few years ago conducted by BMW. 80% of owners didn't even know the car was RWD. Quote from another forum to follow:ks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.SS7
BMW AG Chairman Norbert Reithofer declared that his company (BMW) will start making front wheel drive BMWs.
Though some enthusiasts might not like it, this is where BMW is headed.
Ian Robertson, BMW's global head of sales and marketing said "For the last 60 years we have defined performance as the number of cylinders and cubic capacity," however in the future "a premium car will be equated with technology and number of cylinders will be irrelevant, and we are moving towards that."
He further says, purists won't like it, but BMW will do it, and they will share the front wheel drive systems of future Mini models with future BMW subcompacts.
He also points to Audi/VW and says they are helping BMW move away from "rearl wheel drive fundamentalism."
Reithofer told analysts, "RWD may not be important for BMW's new customers. BMW had a survey that found 80% of the customers for the BMW 1 series didn't know it was a real wheel drive car."
Unless you drive to the point where you get tyre slip I can understand that.
They might not have known it was RWD but they may have test driven a few models in their price range and enjoyed driving the 1 series the most hence BMW got the sale.
I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove, he was even talking about possibly getting a newer car in the near future and saying it's going to have to be a BMW because he liked that one so much. I asked him what was so good about the way it drove and guess what, he couldn't really explain it!
My brother in law borrowed my E39 the other day for the first time (he's owned mostly FWD currently drives a Subaru WRX) and returned full of praise about how it drove and started talking about going for a 5 series next.
I'm of the opinion that this stuff is no coincidence, unfortunately it sounds as though the BMW marketing department doesn't agree.
I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove, he was even talking about possibly getting a newer car in the near future and saying it's going to have to be a BMW because he liked that one so much. I asked him what was so good about the way it drove and guess what, he couldn't really explain it!
My brother in law borrowed my E39 the other day for the first time (he's owned mostly FWD currently drives a Subaru WRX) and returned full of praise about how it drove and started talking about going for a 5 series next.
I'm of the opinion that this stuff is no coincidence, unfortunately it sounds as though the BMW marketing department doesn't agree.
kambites said:
Why do so few manufacturers run different tyre compounds front and rear to correct the fundamentally poor balance of shopping cars when creating (expensive) hot versions? Surely for the margins on something like the RS3, Audi could have commissioned some softer rear tyres to help neutralise the handling balance?
If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
I thought the RS3 already has wider tyres on the front than the rears??If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
iloveboost said:
shoestring7 said:
bks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.
SS7
There was a survey done a few years ago conducted by BMW. 80% of owners didn't even know the car was RWD. Quote from another forum to follow:ks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.SS7
BMW AG Chairman Norbert Reithofer declared that his company (BMW) will start making front wheel drive BMWs.
Though some enthusiasts might not like it, this is where BMW is headed.
Ian Robertson, BMW's global head of sales and marketing said "For the last 60 years we have defined performance as the number of cylinders and cubic capacity," however in the future "a premium car will be equated with technology and number of cylinders will be irrelevant, and we are moving towards that."
He further says, purists won't like it, but BMW will do it, and they will share the front wheel drive systems of future Mini models with future BMW subcompacts.
He also points to Audi/VW and says they are helping BMW move away from "rearl wheel drive fundamentalism."
Reithofer told analysts, "RWD may not be important for BMW's new customers. BMW had a survey that found 80% of the customers for the BMW 1 series didn't know it was a real wheel drive car."
Unless you drive to the point where you get tyre slip I can understand that.
Derek Chevalier said:
kambites said:
Why do so few manufacturers run different tyre compounds front and rear to correct the fundamentally poor balance of shopping cars when creating (expensive) hot versions? Surely for the margins on something like the RS3, Audi could have commissioned some softer rear tyres to help neutralise the handling balance?
If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
I thought the RS3 already has wider tyres on the front than the rears??If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
kambites said:
Derek Chevalier said:
kambites said:
Why do so few manufacturers run different tyre compounds front and rear to correct the fundamentally poor balance of shopping cars when creating (expensive) hot versions? Surely for the margins on something like the RS3, Audi could have commissioned some softer rear tyres to help neutralise the handling balance?
If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
I thought the RS3 already has wider tyres on the front than the rears??If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
The other thing is whether the owners care or not when it comes to the time to change their tyres. If Lotus create a specific 'LTS' branded tyre and explain why that is (as Lotus did with the Elise S2), most owners are in the know enough to not think it's some cynical marketing ploy and buy those LTS tyres. I expect very few VW customers would buy a VW branded tyre, so VW's efforts would be in large wasted.
Both are just guesses until someone with more knowledge comes along!
RobM77 said:
I don't have any figures to hand, but I always assumed that ride and handling was a greater proportion of a car's development budget for Lotus than for other manufacturers.
Well yes, but that's more because they don't bother to spend any money on anything else than because they put a lot of effort into ride and handling. I suspect Audi spent an order of magnitude more time and money setting up the suspension of the RS3 than Lotus did the Elise. I don't think it matters whether people keep specialist tyres on the car once they wear out. All that VW will care about is how journalists perceive the car and they'll be testing it on OEM tyres.
BrownBottle said:
They might not have known it was RWD but they may have test driven a few models in their price range and enjoyed driving the 1 series the most hence BMW got the sale.
I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove, he was even talking about possibly getting a newer car in the near future and saying it's going to have to be a BMW because he liked that one so much. I asked him what was so good about the way it drove and guess what, he couldn't really explain it!
That's certainly what I've found anecdotally. Both my Dad and my sister test drove BMWs and bought them in preference to the car they both wanted (my sister a VW and my Dad was set on an Alfa) because the BMW drove so much better. Neither drive particularly fast and neither are really interested in the way cars handle. The purchase decision was made with knowledge of the bad image associated with BMW, but in the case of my Dad he just didn't care what other people think (he never has), and in the case of my sister it was a decision made in spite of that bad image; both cars were bought because they drove so much better than the competition. Ordinary people care more about how their cars drive more than we give them credit for on PH - look at the percentage of people buying manual transmissions on their cars for example. BMW are certainly asking the wrong questions - my sister wouldn't know if her car was one wheel drive or whether miniature dragons pushed it along, all she knows is the 1 series she drove was a better car to drive than the Golf or A3.I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove, he was even talking about possibly getting a newer car in the near future and saying it's going to have to be a BMW because he liked that one so much. I asked him what was so good about the way it drove and guess what, he couldn't really explain it!
kambites said:
Well yes, but that's more because they don't bother to spend any money on anything else than because they put a lot of effort into ride and handling. I suspect Audi spent an order of magnitude more time and money setting up the suspension of the RS3 than Lotus did the Elise.
Yes, to be honest that's probably true - the percentages might be as I suspect, but the absolute values are quite different.iloveboost said:
Why don't manufacturers do a FWD/AWD transverse engined car with the gearbox and diff in front of the engine? Is it just because they want more interior space, or is it because you'd get worse traction with FWD?
The Renault 4 had this arrangement, but it had a very small engine and gearbox. With any decent sized engine, especially a V6/8 or inline 6 it would cause massive packaging headaches.You would have to accommodate part of the engine where the gearbox is which would intrude on driver and passenger space, and would make maintenance and servicing a real ball ache. You'd probably also need extra sound and heat insulation with the engine so close, exacerbating the packaging issues. Since 99% of drivers probably couldn't tell the difference, why spend millions trying to solve all the problems this would cause?
From a short term point of view, people don't care that BMWs are FWD, RWD or AWD.
However, i think it is worth pointing out that the desirability of their brand was built around being the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. A number of halo cars have allowed them to sell hundreds of thousands of lesser models; they'll need to remember that before the bean counters salivate over selling loads of FWD cars.
However, i think it is worth pointing out that the desirability of their brand was built around being the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. A number of halo cars have allowed them to sell hundreds of thousands of lesser models; they'll need to remember that before the bean counters salivate over selling loads of FWD cars.
kambites said:
Derek Chevalier said:
kambites said:
Why do so few manufacturers run different tyre compounds front and rear to correct the fundamentally poor balance of shopping cars when creating (expensive) hot versions? Surely for the margins on something like the RS3, Audi could have commissioned some softer rear tyres to help neutralise the handling balance?
If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
I thought the RS3 already has wider tyres on the front than the rears??If Lotus could afford to do it for the Elise, I'm sure VAG can!
what you have to do on the MK1 RS3 is:
1) first bin the dire OEM conti tyres for the vastly better MPSS
2) Ensure you have ESP set into sport mode (separate to the sport button) this turns on the electronic diffs / torque vectoring software, no idea why its off by default or why audi hid this info
BrownBottle said:
They might not have known it was RWD but they may have test driven a few models in their price range and enjoyed driving the 1 series the most hence BMW got the sale.
I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove.
It's all fun and games until your rear sub frame detaches itself from the body of the vehicle.I know a guy who recently changed jobs so needed a cheap car quickly for commuting and the first thing that came up was an E46 estate 318i. I met him a couple of weeks later and all he could do was praise the way it drove.
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