RE: Haldex - the truth!

[RobM77]

hondansx said:

From a short term point of view, people don't care that BMWs are FWD, RWD or AWD.

However, i think it is worth pointing out that the desirability of their brand was built around being the 'Ultimate Driving Machine'. A number of halo cars have allowed them to sell hundreds of thousands of lesser models; they'll need to remember that before the bean counters salivate over selling loads of FWD cars.

Does the M3 really have an effect on 320d sales?! As far as I've interpreted their advertising, it seems to be based on the whole range having the longitudinal front engined rear drive layout, close to 50:50 weight distribution and rear drive, something that's present in everything from an M3 CSL down to a 116d. 'The Ultimate Driving Machine' is a bit wishful thinking, a bit like 'Probably the best lager in the world', and I think most people realise that and know that a BMW isn't as good to drive as an Elise, Caterham, Ferrari etc, but the whole point of the core values of BMW is surely to bring good handling and pleasurable driving to the daily commute? In that goal, they've succeeded.

Whilst I don't buy that anyone truly believes BMWs are the ultimate driving machine or that Carlsberg is the best lager in the world, I do, however, share your concerns that BMW are abandoning their core values and resting on their laurels to sell yet another transverse engined nose heavy front wheel drive car, as if we didn't have enough on the market already! I do hope that the 'Active Tourer' is as far as it goes. The 1 series going FWD I could understand, because the pros and cons of RWD are against it quite heavily compared to the more spacious FWD alternatives like the Golf or Auris, but the 3 series going FWD would surely be commercial suicide, especially with the Jag XE order books now open? I really can't see it ever happening.

[Mr Whippy]

It may not be commercial suicide if they sell just as many cars but save £££ on each one.

We have to remember we're living in an age where volumes and margins rule supreme, and the product is kinda irrelevant. If it could be a turd and marketed well enough to sell then that is great!

How long this type of approach to car design and business models will last is another thing.


A small but not insignificant market is being left behind as time goes by and I think it'll slowly be filled with the likes of years gone by Lotus and TVR types.


VAG and the like can put crappy awd onto their bloated crappy shopping trolleys and pretend to their customers that they're driving some rally inspired sports car in disguise all day long, but while Asian car manufacturers fill out the middle ground normal car market with better products for those kinds of buyers, and real sports car owners want real sports cars for a realistic price that they won't find from any European manufacturer who just stick big engines in their big fat cars and charge double the price, then the seeds of other manufacturers coming in to fill the space will be sown.

BMW will dilute their USP away and be a financial 'success' for a while doing so... what happens beyond that while, is another matter.

Dave

[Hooli]

slipstream 1985 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Hooli said:

I really don't understand all this technology being used to cure the basic fault that the cars should be RWD with a Haldex feeding some power to the front as needed.

would that not result in people driving off the road. The rear swings out you apply opposite lock the power gets shunted to the front and youv just steered yourself off the road....

My only real experience of road going 4x4s was a Subaru with 60/40 rear bias. Going by that, the bit of the power to the front keeps the front pulled forwards & stops you spinning rather than your suggestion.

[Mr Whippy]

Hooli said:

My only real experience of road going 4x4s was a Subaru with 60/40 rear bias. Going by that, the bit of the power to the front keeps the front pulled forwards & stops you spinning rather than your suggestion.

With a rear bias then that shouldn't happen.

More so if the awd system is half decent then if there is a regain of grip at the rears then torque will not be sent to the front to let them fire you off the road.


I bet this issue is problematic in front biased awd cars though, especially when all the ESP and diff are reacting all over the shop. How a driver is meant to understand what will happen is perplexing.
This is likely why most fwd/front biased awd cars you see trying to 'drift' look out of control and stupid rocking all over the shop.

Dave

[shoestring7]

iloveboost said:

shoestring7 said:

bks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.

SS7

There was a survey done a few years ago conducted by BMW. 80% of owners didn't even know the car was RWD.

I don't suppose BMW publish their customer profile data but I saw that research. The 80% figure referred only to buyers of 1 series, and only those new to the brand. BMW weren't surprised; the 1 series was supposed to introduce younger drivers new to BMW.

As you'd expect if you have any sort of capacity for intelligent thought, European and US customers of 3,5,6,7 and X series series are much better educated than the norm (i.e. over 90% college/university educated), in the top decile for income, and attracted to BMW's emphasis on 'dynamic' driving. When asked, most customers put this reason(or synonyms) in their top 3 reasons for buying BMW.

So unless you think that college educated types in the top income bands are stupid and ill-informed my statement stands.

SS7

[RobM77]

shoestring7 said:

iloveboost said:

shoestring7 said:

bks. For every dippy know-nothing blonde buying a 114i "because its a BMW" there are a legion of above average income and intelligence, well informed, knowledgable, and enthusiastic BMW customers who understand exactly what rwd is and why they prefer it.

SS7

There was a survey done a few years ago conducted by BMW. 80% of owners didn't even know the car was RWD.

I don't suppose BMW publish their customer profile data but I saw that research. The 80% figure referred only to buyers of 1 series, and only those new to the brand. BMW weren't surprised; the 1 series was supposed to introduce younger drivers new to BMW.

As you'd expect if you have any sort of capacity for intelligent thought, European and US customers of 3,5,6,7 and X series series are much better educated than the norm (i.e. over 90% college/university educated), in the top decile for income, and attracted to BMW's emphasis on 'dynamic' driving. When asked, most customers put this reason(or synonyms) in their top 3 reasons for buying BMW.

So unless you think that college educated types in the top income bands are stupid and ill-informed my statement stands.

SS7

The source of that statistic is quoted here as the CEO of BMW in a press-release conf call almost exactly five years ago:

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/1-serie...

As I've stated twice though, this doesn't mean they don't feel the benefits in the way their car drives and as SS7 correctly states, this survey was just for 1 series drivers. For me the idea that a consumer needs to understand how something works to feel its benefits is laughable - as I said before, I've no idea how some of the tech in my washing machine works, but I know it's better than the cheap one I had in a rented house because it produces better results. I'd fail the equivalent survey for washing machines, but that doesn't mean Hotpoint and Bosch et al should start producing crap.

[Mr911lover]

I am guessing that a lot of people commenting haven't worked in car dealerships?

Yes you get your car buff's and geeks coming in but on the whole I would say they are the minority, most drivers don't know about fwd/rwd etc.

They know "all BMW's are bad in snow" but they don't know why (customers words not mine) however they like the brand.

Same with Audi, on the whole buyers don't have a clue about the different Quattro systems on offer, they want 4wd and that's it.

[RobM77]

Mr911lover said:

I am guessing that a lot of people commenting haven't worked in car dealerships?

Yes you get your car buff's and geeks coming in but on the whole I would say they are the minority, most drivers don't know about fwd/rwd etc.

They know "all BMW's are bad in snow" but they don't know why (customers words not mine) however they like the brand.

Same with Audi, on the whole buyers don't have a clue about the different Quattro systems on offer, they want 4wd and that's it.

Yes, as I said earlier I had this conversation with a BMW salesman. As I have repeatedly stated, it's not that buyers know the car is FE/RWD, but on the test drive they feel how much better/different it drives than a FE/FWD and that feeds into their decision making process.

[Mr911lover]

I agree it wasn't directed at you, the point is taking BMW as an example again they generally driver better than the competition.

[iloveboost]

RobM77 said:

Read my post above though regarding that - if they really did ask that direct question I think it's the wrong thing to ask. The right thing to ask is whether they preferred the handling of their 1 series to the Golf or A3 they were otherwise looking at; if the answer's yes, then RWD has probably done its thing and who cares if they knew why or not? Whether the owner understands the mechanicals behind why they prefer the handling on their 1 series is another question entirely, and I'm not sure it has any relevance at all. Raising awareness is a good thing, and it'll shortcut their buying process next time, but just because an owner's mechanical knowledge is lacking is no reason to revert to a front wheel drive layout. I've got no idea at all what makes my iPhone 6 screen look so much better than the screen on my iPhone 4S, even at the same res - would I notice if Apple reverted to the old tech? Of course I would!

You make a good point. I do think a better question to ask is does it handle better, the same or worse than competitors cars? Rather than is it FWD, AWD or RWD? However if a driver doesn't know which wheels are driven, they're really unlikely to know what good or bad handling feels like.
I'm not saying manufacturers shouldn't care about handling, but it's of little to no benefit to most people. Even in an emergency situation I think grip and stability are more important than balanced handling. Mainly because momentum from fast steering will cause an oversteer/understeer mess the the stability control has to then sort out (if there's the space and time to).

[Mr Whippy]

This is the issue eventually, in that rwd or fwd are irrelevant to a point, what matters is the entire car ethos and setup.

I'd have a decent fwd over a crap rwd any day of the week.

Where BMW go with rwd as their equivalent to Audis Quattro is another thing.


But neither mean as much as they used to.

Ie all Quattro used to be pretty swish but now it's only the specials that get great awd.

BMW used lsd on all models with a decent power output but now only on m cars.



In the end it is all just volume and profit loss stuff. As market widens customers care less so the more mainstream stuff gets crapper.

To the point today that to get a half interesting Porsche, BMW or VAG you need to buy a special one. The normal ones are just dumbed down for your average flashy commuters needs.

[RobM77]

I think it's not really a matter of what happens in extremis in a car, it's more to do with a car's responses at normal everyday road speeds. All other things being equal, most people prefer the feel of FE/RWD, largely because of the mass distribution. If I put all the heavy stuff at the front of a shopping trolley I can feel the difference at any speed, and the same's true in a car. With regard to the statement 'all other things being equal' I reckon BMW are at least up to the job of other car companies in their general ride and handling prowess, if not better to be honest. Add FE/RWD and it's fairly clear cut. I'm no 'fan boy' and I could (and have) written reams of criticism towards BMW, but there's one fact I am fairly sure about, and that's that they demonstrate very well the benefits of a FE/RWD layout, and I'm sure most people can detect that.

[rhinochopig]

RobM77 said:

I think it's not really a matter of what happens in extremis in a car, it's more to do with a car's responses at normal everyday road speeds. All other things being equal, most people prefer the feel of FE/RWD, largely because of the mass distribution. If I put all the heavy stuff at the front of a shopping trolley I can feel the difference at any speed, and the same's true in a car. With regard to the statement 'all other things being equal' I reckon BMW are at least up to the job of other car companies in their general ride and handling prowess, if not better to be honest. Add FE/RWD and it's fairly clear cut. I'm no 'fan boy' and I could (and have) written reams of criticism towards BMW, but there's one fact I am fairly sure about, and that's that they demonstrate very well the benefits of a FE/RWD layout, and I'm sure most people can detect that.

But most FE/RWD cars have the mass up front though. Very few RWD 'normal' cars have a transaxle gearbox. The only additional mass at the rear is the differential. Granted the box will be typically be mounted aft of the egine so front-mid but that doesn't make that much difference when a typically manual box is somewhere between 30 and 50kg.

[nickfrog]

Most BMW have at least 2/3rds of the engine behind the front axle, including the 6-pots. Which, coupled with 50/50 weigh dist, is what gives them the relatively low polar moment of inertia that helps them handle better, and particularly change direction better.

[cerb4.5lee]

Mr Whippy said:

I'd have a decent fwd over a crap rwd any day of the week.

I genuinely agree with most of your threads Dave but I have never really understood this and I just cant like fwd for love or money and having owned a Haldex equipped car that has made me hate them even more to be fair.

I respect fwd cars are safe and are actually quicker in some situations but I find them frustrating and not very enjoyable to drive and the understeer just drives me mad and at least with rwd you do have some adjustability rather than a fwd just ploughing straight on at every corner.

A friend of mine hates rwd though and always argues with me because he is a massive fan of fwd(for some daft reason!) so it just shows we all like different things.

Maybe its because I haven't experienced a cracking fwd motor because everyone waxes lyrical about the Renault sport cars so maybe I am just missing something.

[stevesingo]

cerb4.5lee said:

I genuinely agree with most of your threads Dave but I have never really understood this and I just cant like fwd for love or money and having owned a Haldex equipped car that has made me hate them even more to be fair.

I respect fwd cars are safe and are actually quicker in some situations but I find them frustrating and not very enjoyable to drive and the understeer just drives me mad and at least with rwd you do have some adjustability rather than a fwd just ploughing straight on at every corner.

A friend of mine hates rwd though and always argues with me because he is a massive fan of fwd(for some daft reason!) so it just shows we all like different things.

Maybe its because I haven't experienced a cracking fwd motor because everyone waxes lyrical about the Renault sport cars so maybe I am just missing something.

I think you are doing something wrong.

I love my RWD cars as much as the next stereotypical PH'er, but even some of the more mundane FWD cars can corner with great balance and adjustability.

Part of the challenge of driving is the drives adaptation to the dynamic characteristics of the car. A slow in fast out cornering style with a dab of oppo might be fine for powerful RWD car but will not be the most satisfying with a FWD car as you are limited as to how much power you can apply to the wheels without compromising the ability to control direction. Likewise, turning in on a trailing brake, getting the car rotated early and carrying as much speed as you can through the apex is maybe not the best (easiest to control) way to negotiate a corner with a powerful RWD car.

There is satisfaction to be had from both; it is up to the driver to satisfy themselves.

For the record there FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles that are not satisfying to drive. It is not exclusive to FWD.

[RobM77]

I agree. I raced FWD for about five or six years, enjoyed it and still hold a few lap records from the category I was in. The technique to get a FWD going quickly though doesn't translate very well to the public road as it requires huge turn-in commitment. Nevertheless, there are plenty of FWD cars that I enjoy driving but I'll always prefer RWD.

We always get to this point in discussion on PH where people say "I'd rather have a good FWD than a bad RWD car" (as with Mr Whippy's quote above), but I don't think that adds much, if anything, to the discussion. I prefer Indian food to English food, but that doesn't mean I'd eat tripe out of a dustbin in India in preference to dining at the a top London restaurant - obviously there's some overlap there!! To compare drivetrains you have to compare like with like and for me that's comparing, for example, the 1 series with the VW Golf or the 3 series with the Audi A4. I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.

[cerb4.5lee]

stevesingo said:

I think you are doing something wrong.

I love my RWD cars as much as the next stereotypical PH'er, but even some of the more mundane FWD cars can corner with great balance and adjustability.

Part of the challenge of driving is the drives adaptation to the dynamic characteristics of the car. A slow in fast out cornering style with a dab of oppo might be fine for powerful RWD car but will not be the most satisfying with a FWD car as you are limited as to how much power you can apply to the wheels without compromising the ability to control direction. Likewise, turning in on a trailing brake, getting the car rotated early and carrying as much speed as you can through the apex is maybe not the best (easiest to control) way to negotiate a corner with a powerful RWD car.

There is satisfaction to be had from both; it is up to the driver to satisfy themselves.

For the record there FWD, RWD and AWD vehicles that are not satisfying to drive. It is not exclusive to FWD.

As you say I just don't think the way I drive seems to suit FWD and I have always got on better with RWD for some reason, I remember a few years ago when I had a mk5 RS2000 and I entered a roundabout too fast and the rear end started to come round and I just didn't know what to do!

If that had happened in a RWD I would have been fine with it without drama and I just don't think I have ever mastered the art of enjoying a FWD car to its full potential, another example was when I had my Mondeo V6 and I entered a corner quite quickly and it just ploughed straight on and I nearly ended up in someone`s front garden!

Since then I have stuck with RWD because I am either not safe or capable of driving quickly in a FWD car and I will now leave FWD well alone and I think its for the best!

[SuperchargedVR6]

Had a MK4 R32 for 18 months and bunged a Haldex blue controller on it (software tweaks to make it more pre-emptive) and it was OK. The car in general felt heavy and ungainly through the corners, but the fact of the matter is, despite peoples reservations of Haldex; in a standing start vs a FWD golf of the same power, the R32 would just rocket off, especially in the wet.

Having said that, that was the only time I felt Haldex was of any benefit and that kind of driving accounted for less than 5% of it's daily use. It's a lot of baggage to carry around for an occasional squirt off the lights.

[Fastdruid]

RobM77 said:

I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.

Golf Gti every time. Rather a different question if you were comparing a Golf GTi vs a 125i and while I'd have to drive them both on paper I'd take the 1-series. I'd rather eat that tripe out of the bin in India than have a diesel though.