RE: Haldex - the truth!
Discussion
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.
Golf Gti every time. Rather a different question if you were comparing a Golf GTi vs a 125i and while I'd have to drive them both on paper I'd take the 1-series. I'd rather eat that tripe out of the bin in India than have a diesel though. 
We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
RobM77 said:
If it was a BMW petrol engine with that horrible lag they have at the top of the pedal then I'd be the other way round and would want the diesel! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
Its a shame they never did a 130d Rob and that would have made for an interesting drive with all the torque! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.cerb4.5lee said:
RobM77 said:
If it was a BMW petrol engine with that horrible lag they have at the top of the pedal then I'd be the other way round and would want the diesel! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
Its a shame they never did a 130d Rob and that would have made for an interesting drive with all the torque! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
You're quite right - 123d was as high as they went wasn't it? Power is irrelevant to me though in the discussion of FWD vs RWD, thus my original comparison 
I think most people are going to have an overlap between their impressions of the two layouts, the question is how big that overlap is. I'd rather have a BMW or Merc than virtually any FWD car I think of, but I'd rather have an Integra Type R than an ageing Cortina. To bring things back on topic, for me the overlap between 4WD and FWD is much closer. It's a three way Venn diagram
RobM77 said:
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.
Golf Gti every time. Rather a different question if you were comparing a Golf GTi vs a 125i and while I'd have to drive them both on paper I'd take the 1-series. I'd rather eat that tripe out of the bin in India than have a diesel though. We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
Fastdruid said:
RobM77 said:
I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.
Golf Gti every time. Rather a different question if you were comparing a Golf GTi vs a 125i and while I'd have to drive them both on paper I'd take the 1-series. I'd rather eat that tripe out of the bin in India than have a diesel though. We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate. For me it all starts with control in a car. There's no point having nice handling if you can't access it or if the controls get in the way of enjoyment.Edited by RobM77 on Friday 27th March 11:51
RobM77 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
RobM77 said:
If it was a BMW petrol engine with that horrible lag they have at the top of the pedal then I'd be the other way round and would want the diesel! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
Its a shame they never did a 130d Rob and that would have made for an interesting drive with all the torque! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate. You're quite right - 123d was as high as they went wasn't it? Power is irrelevant to me though in the discussion of FWD vs RWD, thus my original comparison I think most people are going to have an overlap between their impressions of the two layouts, the question is how big that overlap is. I'd rather have a BMW or Merc than virtually any FWD car I think of, but I'd rather have an Integra Type R than an ageing Cortina. To bring things back on topic, for me the overlap between 4WD and FWD is much closer. It's a three way Venn diagram
My old XR4x4 set up I really liked too and I used to enjoy winding the revs right up and dropping the clutch and it just used to shoot off the line(maybe not shoot because it only did 0 to 60 in 8.2 secs!!)
cerb4.5lee said:
RobM77 said:
If it was a BMW petrol engine with that horrible lag they have at the top of the pedal then I'd be the other way round and would want the diesel! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
Its a shame they never did a 130d Rob and that would have made for an interesting drive with all the torque! We all have our own priorities though, and in retrospect I should have written "120i/120d vs Golf GTi". Mind you, the straight line performance is very different, so perhaps 130d/130i vs Golf GTi would be more appropriate.
RobM77 said:
You're quite right - 123d was as high as they went wasn't it? Power is irrelevant to me though in the discussion of FWD vs RWD, thus my original comparison I think most people are going to have an overlap between their impressions of the two layouts, the question is how big that overlap is. I'd rather have a BMW or Merc than virtually any FWD car I think of, but I'd rather have an Integra Type R than an ageing Cortina. To bring things back on topic, for me the overlap between 4WD and FWD is much closer. It's a three way Venn diagram
It will, if pushed very hard, display some RWD handling bias (and so can be made to drive a bit), but it is unbearable 90% per cent of the time. A bit like a current BMW on the standard suspension.
I would much much rather drive a FWD car with hydraulic steering, smallish tyres and a NA engine. I cant really believe that the driven wheels are so much more important to you than everything else.
ORD said:
RobM77 said:
You're quite right - 123d was as high as they went wasn't it? Power is irrelevant to me though in the discussion of FWD vs RWD, thus my original comparison I think most people are going to have an overlap between their impressions of the two layouts, the question is how big that overlap is. I'd rather have a BMW or Merc than virtually any FWD car I think of, but I'd rather have an Integra Type R than an ageing Cortina. To bring things back on topic, for me the overlap between 4WD and FWD is much closer. It's a three way Venn diagram
It will, if pushed very hard, display some RWD handling bias (and so can be made to drive a bit), but it is unbearable 90% per cent of the time. A bit like a current BMW on the standard suspension.
I would much much rather drive a FWD car with hydraulic steering, smallish tyres and a NA engine. I cant really believe that the driven wheels are so much more important to you than everything else.
I guess we all have different priorities. Whilst it's true that if you put the keys on my desk right now to a 106 GTi and a 120d, or even a 130i, I'd grab the 106 keys (I love small lightweight cars), but for an ownership proposition I just couldn't live with the nose heavy balance. I suppose it's a bit like enjoying a date with a dizzy blonde - we all would and it'd be fun, but after a while we'd get annoyed by the rather one dimensional experience. I've recently had MINI and 107 courtesy cars and enjoyed them both, but I wasn't sad to hand them back once the week was up.
Incidentally the driven wheels probably aren't the most important thing to me, controls come ahead of that. If you offered me an E46 330ci like the one I used to own with huge compliance on the steering, 1 sec of throttle lag, clutch delay valve, over enthusiastic anti-stall and clumsy DSC or a MINI, I'd take the MINI.
Mr Whippy said:
Hooli said:
My only real experience of road going 4x4s was a Subaru with 60/40 rear bias. Going by that, the bit of the power to the front keeps the front pulled forwards & stops you spinning rather than your suggestion.
With a rear bias then that shouldn't happen.More so if the awd system is half decent then if there is a regain of grip at the rears then torque will not be sent to the front to let them fire you off the road.
I bet this issue is problematic in front biased awd cars though, especially when all the ESP and diff are reacting all over the shop. How a driver is meant to understand what will happen is perplexing.
This is likely why most fwd/front biased awd cars you see trying to 'drift' look out of control and stupid rocking all over the shop.
Dave
aeropilot said:
RobM77 said:
I've recently had MINI and 107 courtesy cars and enjoyed them both, but I wasn't sad to hand them back once the week was up.
A week...!!Blimey, every time I've had a MINI as a loaner, I couldn't wait to return the bloody things after just one day
RobM77 said:
aeropilot said:
RobM77 said:
I've recently had MINI and 107 courtesy cars and enjoyed them both, but I wasn't sad to hand them back once the week was up.
A week...!!Blimey, every time I've had a MINI as a loaner, I couldn't wait to return the bloody things after just one day
aeropilot said:
RobM77 said:
aeropilot said:
RobM77 said:
I've recently had MINI and 107 courtesy cars and enjoyed them both, but I wasn't sad to hand them back once the week was up.
A week...!!Blimey, every time I've had a MINI as a loaner, I couldn't wait to return the bloody things after just one day
We all have different priorities I guess. I found the driving position good, better than most cars. The handling, whilst with a definite understeer bias, was very good and the car didn't wallow and was linear no matter how hard you pushed it. The mass felt very contained basically, in all respects. The ePAS took some getting used to (my daily is hydraulic and my track car unassisted), but the other major controls had good weighting and no lag. The feel of what the car was doing was good - it was basically just a really good package. The ergonomics were daft - the electric window switches and iDrive were so close to me I couldn't operate them, and I had the seat a long way back - very odd. The engine a complete non-event. However, I mainly go for controls, feel and driving position and on that basis I loved it.RobM77 said:
I agree. I raced FWD for about five or six years, enjoyed it and still hold a few lap records from the category I was in. The technique to get a FWD going quickly though doesn't translate very well to the public road as it requires huge turn-in commitment. Nevertheless, there are plenty of FWD cars that I enjoy driving but I'll always prefer RWD. We always get to this point in discussion on PH where people say "I'd rather have a good FWD than a bad RWD car" (as with Mr Whippy's quote above), but I don't think that adds much, if anything, to the discussion. I prefer Indian food to English food, but that doesn't mean I'd eat tripe out of a dustbin in India in preference to dining at the a top London restaurant - obviously there's some overlap there!! To compare drivetrains you have to compare like with like and for me that's comparing, for example, the 1 series with the VW Golf or the 3 series with the Audi A4. I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.
But you do have to compare apples and oranges because BMW don't make a great fwd to go with their great rwd cars.
And VAG don't make any mainstream great steering cars to go with either their fwd or awd setups.
Since rwd and proper awd disappeared for the mainstream stuff, to be replaced by fwd systems mainly on cost grounds, we are left struggling to compare anything properly.
All the VAG fwd stuff I've driven (mainstream I'll admit) has been a bit dire in my view. Yet my fwd Peugeot 306 GTi and even normal HDi models were both genuinely scary if you wanted them to be. They'd bite the unwary or silly in a way the VAG stuff never would.
I ultimately prefer my rwd car over a fwd one at the power levels and weight my car is lugging around. I can imagine over 400bhp or so then a good awd system starts to get useful especially in the colder wetter months.
I doubt any 1250kg+ fwd car can really be that good with 200bhp+. Ie, all these Focus RS and stuff must just drive like turd vs an equivalently focussed rwd car.
But looking back to the 80s and 90s, there were some quite s
t rwd cars around in the mainstream... lets not fool ourselves 
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
RobM77 said:
I agree. I raced FWD for about five or six years, enjoyed it and still hold a few lap records from the category I was in. The technique to get a FWD going quickly though doesn't translate very well to the public road as it requires huge turn-in commitment. Nevertheless, there are plenty of FWD cars that I enjoy driving but I'll always prefer RWD. We always get to this point in discussion on PH where people say "I'd rather have a good FWD than a bad RWD car" (as with Mr Whippy's quote above), but I don't think that adds much, if anything, to the discussion. I prefer Indian food to English food, but that doesn't mean I'd eat tripe out of a dustbin in India in preference to dining at the a top London restaurant - obviously there's some overlap there!! To compare drivetrains you have to compare like with like and for me that's comparing, for example, the 1 series with the VW Golf or the 3 series with the Audi A4. I realise each car has a slightly different appeal and the 1 is tuned for a keener driver than a boggo Golf, so how about landing the other side of the slight difference by comparing a 120d with a Golf GTi? I've driven both quite a bit and would rather have the 1 series or 3 series in both comparisons.
But you do have to compare apples and oranges because BMW don't make a great fwd to go with their great rwd cars.
And VAG don't make any mainstream great steering cars to go with either their fwd or awd setups.
Since rwd and proper awd disappeared for the mainstream stuff, to be replaced by fwd systems mainly on cost grounds, we are left struggling to compare anything properly.
All the VAG fwd stuff I've driven (mainstream I'll admit) has been a bit dire in my view. Yet my fwd Peugeot 306 GTi and even normal HDi models were both genuinely scary if you wanted them to be. They'd bite the unwary or silly in a way the VAG stuff never would.
I ultimately prefer my rwd car over a fwd one at the power levels and weight my car is lugging around. I can imagine over 400bhp or so then a good awd system starts to get useful especially in the colder wetter months.
I doubt any 1250kg+ fwd car can really be that good with 200bhp+. Ie, all these Focus RS and stuff must just drive like turd vs an equivalently focussed rwd car.
But looking back to the 80s and 90s, there were some quite s
t rwd cars around in the mainstream... lets not fool ourselves Dave
It is quite hard to make direct comparisons, because so often being FWD or RWD makes a car vastly more likely to be tuned in a particular way for a particular market. Plus, even if a manufacturer's intentions are in a particular direction, they may not have executed their plan particularly well - for example I've driven a few FE/RWD sports/GT cars that in my opinion had inferior ride and handling overall when compared to a bog standard 3 series. So direct comparisons are difficult (nowhere near as easy as comparing an x-drive 3 series with a bog standard one, or a quattro Audi with a FWD Audi for example).Despite all that confusion though, there are common characteristics of cars that point directly to the mechanical layout that they possess. If you jump into a RE/RWD car, then you can predict what characteristics it's likely to have, albeit affected by other aspects of the car (damper tuning, geo etc), those characteristics will still be recognisably there, would you not agree?
RobM77 said:
It is quite hard to make direct comparisons, because so often being FWD or RWD makes a car vastly more likely to be tuned in a particular way for a particular market. Plus, even if a manufacturer's intentions are in a particular direction, they may not have executed their plan particularly well - for example I've driven a few FE/RWD sports/GT cars that in my opinion had inferior ride and handling overall when compared to a bog standard 3 series. So direct comparisons are difficult (nowhere near as easy as comparing an x-drive 3 series with a bog standard one, or a quattro Audi with a FWD Audi for example).Despite all that confusion though, there are common characteristics of cars that point directly to the mechanical layout that they possess. If you jump into a RE/RWD car, then you can predict what characteristics it's likely to have, albeit affected by other aspects of the car (damper tuning, geo etc), those characteristics will still be recognisably there, would you not agree?
ORD said:
RobM77 said:
It is quite hard to make direct comparisons, because so often being FWD or RWD makes a car vastly more likely to be tuned in a particular way for a particular market. Plus, even if a manufacturer's intentions are in a particular direction, they may not have executed their plan particularly well - for example I've driven a few FE/RWD sports/GT cars that in my opinion had inferior ride and handling overall when compared to a bog standard 3 series. So direct comparisons are difficult (nowhere near as easy as comparing an x-drive 3 series with a bog standard one, or a quattro Audi with a FWD Audi for example).Despite all that confusion though, there are common characteristics of cars that point directly to the mechanical layout that they possess. If you jump into a RE/RWD car, then you can predict what characteristics it's likely to have, albeit affected by other aspects of the car (damper tuning, geo etc), those characteristics will still be recognisably there, would you not agree?
RobM77 said:
Oo, I disagree with that!! I haven't tried the latest Mondeo, but I've driven a few over the years and, like any other FWD car, they're instantly distinguishable from a FE/RWD car like a 3 series. For starters FWD cars tend to have completely different front suspension characteristics.
Hard to focus on the FE/RWD dynamics when feeling sea sick due to the boaty handling.Don't laugh outright, but the mk4 mondeo with around 160bhp petrol engine and hydraulic steering is a very sweet cornering machine. Yes it's quite a big car but very composed, changes direction fast, and smooth. Not a racing car I know, but for covering ground reasonably quickly with ease, does the trick. Could realistically do with another hundred horses atleast, but that may then spoil the recipe.
I've started to notice that power really does corrupt, fun as it is.
I've started to notice that power really does corrupt, fun as it is.
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