RE: Haldex - the truth!

[Zad]

You need an ST220 then.

Oh, and a company petrol card to run it on

[Konan]

Mr Whippy said:

I re-worked and greased the nipples on mine quite often to avoid such worries.

Even without a front viscous diff it was a genuinely decent awd system. Sideways on demand but with a load of fwd security... and that lazy V6 made shooting out of junctions using lots of torque a complete doddle.

With VAG stuff you're probably languishing off boost in such situations too. Pants.

Mine ended up with the typical 24V Cosworth conversion. OK, you hand to wrestle the nose in a bit due to the weight of the lump but, even for a talentless lump like me, it was so easy to get on the throttle and hold the rear exactly where you wanted it. Can't knock it for £600 of motor car when you're in your early 20s.

I also had (and it's still about) a 4 pot XR4x4. Utterly gutless but even nicer to chuck around.

In comparison, every Haldex system I drove(admittedly, only up to about 2005 cars, but I'm comparing it to a '60s 4x4 layout) has felt like any drive to the back wheels is an afterthought. Regardless of what strategy they use to decide on power to the going to the back, it was more like glorified traction control than a proper AWD system.

I'm not sure about statements such as 'no more than a 1/4 turn of slip' - you can damn well watch the fronts scrabble around. And once you've lost the traction and spun the wheel up, it's that much harder to get it back.

I'm open minded as to what new ones might be like, but the 1st and 2nd gen where so awful it's going to take some getting over.

[Fastdruid]

HertsBiker said:

Don't laugh outright, but the mk4 mondeo with around 160bhp petrol engine and hydraulic steering is a very sweet cornering machine. Yes it's quite a big car but very composed, changes direction fast, and smooth. Not a racing car I know, but for covering ground reasonably quickly with ease, does the trick. Could realistically do with another hundred horses atleast, but that may then spoil the recipe.

I agree. You need the 2.5T although sometimes I wish it was AWD as it does struggle to get the power down!

It is quite a bit quicker on the move than the numbers would suggest as well, mostly because as a FWD it struggles to get off the line without wheelspin (although this is of course common to many powerful FWD cars).

Zad said:

You need an ST220 then.

Oh, and a company petrol card to run it on

From what I gather the "normal" Mk4 is better than the ST220 and the 2.5T is a *much* better engine, especially as you can remap it (at which point it will murder the ST220).

Correct about the fuel card though, I'm averaging 25mpg (for about 98% round town).

Edited by Fastdruid on Friday 27th March 21:03

[Clivey]

RobM77 said:

We all have different priorities I guess. I found the driving position good, better than most cars. The handling, whilst with a definite understeer bias, was very good and the car didn't wallow and was linear no matter how hard you pushed it. The mass felt very contained basically, in all respects. The ePAS took some getting used to (my daily is hydraulic and my track car unassisted), but the other major controls had good weighting and no lag. The feel of what the car was doing was good - it was basically just a really good package. The ergonomics were daft - the electric window switches and iDrive were so close to me I couldn't operate them, and I had the seat a long way back - very odd. The engine a complete non-event. However, I mainly go for controls, feel and driving position and on that basis I loved it.

Which Mini (model) was this Rob? As you've probably already read, we traded-in our E46 320i for an R56 JCW. - The OH wanted one and I couldn't find any of the BMW models I was considering in the right spec / condition. Handling-wise, it's probably the best FWD car I've driven but I still prefer a well-sorted RWD car (and a revvy 6-pot). I'll be saving for a Tuscan ASAP!

[RobM77]

Clivey said:

RobM77 said:

We all have different priorities I guess. I found the driving position good, better than most cars. The handling, whilst with a definite understeer bias, was very good and the car didn't wallow and was linear no matter how hard you pushed it. The mass felt very contained basically, in all respects. The ePAS took some getting used to (my daily is hydraulic and my track car unassisted), but the other major controls had good weighting and no lag. The feel of what the car was doing was good - it was basically just a really good package. The ergonomics were daft - the electric window switches and iDrive were so close to me I couldn't operate them, and I had the seat a long way back - very odd. The engine a complete non-event. However, I mainly go for controls, feel and driving position and on that basis I loved it.

Which Mini (model) was this Rob? As you've probably already read, we traded-in our E46 320i for an R56 JCW. - The OH wanted one and I couldn't find any of the BMW models I was considering in the right spec / condition. Handling-wise, it's probably the best FWD car I've driven but I still prefer a well-sorted RWD car (and a revvy 6-pot). I'll be saving for a Tuscan ASAP!

A bog standard diesel one I should imagine the faster models are excellent, as the base car seemed very good.

I agree, it's one of the best front wheel drive cars I've driven, but obviously nowhere near as nice to drive a similarly well sorted rear drive car. I'm also quite picky with BMWs; having driven most of them now I know what spec I want for my next car, but finding that might be hard! I'm on 115k now in my 320d and I'm hoping to take it to just shy of 200k before switching to a nearly new one and doing the same again I fancy a 320/325d M Sport Touring with manual gearbox and bog standard wheels and tyres.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 28th March 18:26

[Clivey]

Article said:

More usefully the Twinster car held around 15mph more speed on a skidpan circle thanks to its ability to 'overspeed' the outer wheel, something that much reduces understeer.

And this is what's been missing from on-demand systems so far. Hopefully the upcoming Focus RS is the business and VAG et al follow suit with their future on-demand systems. I'm consistently frustrated by the likes of Audi's "performance" Golf-platform models; some seem to have lots of brilliant ingredients yet fall down when it comes to the chassis / setup.

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

A bog standard diesel one I should imagine the faster models are excellent, as the base car seemed very good.

I agree, it's one of the best front wheel drive cars I've driven, but obviously nowhere near as nice to drive a similarly well sorted rear drive car. I'm also quite picky with BMWs; having driven most of them now I know what spec I want for my next car, but finding that might be hard! I'm on 115k now in my 320d and I'm hoping to take it to just shy of 200k before switching to a nearly new one and doing the same again I fancy a 320/325d M Sport Touring with manual gearbox and bog standard wheels and tyres.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 28th March 18:26

For the love of God get a petrol engine and some counselling for your "top of pedal lag" insanity, Rob!

The current 320d is a lag monster - pedal lag, turbo lag, general unresponsiveness...it's got it all. The 320i is a lot better in every respect except fuel economy, and I wonder how much of that is because it is actually prepared to allow fuel to the engine rather than responding to throttle inputs with "Maybe later, but it wont be very efficient, so I'll think about it."

The steering on current BMWs is pretty terrible, I am afraid, so you'll be disappointed in that respect. Audi-like in normal mode; tolerable in Sport mode (but then, in reality, the software has just dialled down the assistance a bit and not added any feel)

[Clivey]

RobM77 said:

A bog standard diesel one I should imagine the faster models are excellent, as the base car seemed very good.

There are 3 r56s in the family; 2x pre-LCI Cooper Ds and our JCW. - Your assumption's on the money in my experience.

RobM77 said:

I agree, it's one of the best front wheel drive cars I've driven, but obviously nowhere near as nice to drive a similarly well sorted rear drive car.

Yeah; it was a compromise for us. Being cheap to run, still under warranty etc. etc. will, with luck, mean that I can be slightly less sensible with our other choices.

RobM77 said:

I'm also quite picky with BMWs; having driven most of them now I know what spec I want for my next car, but finding that might be hard! I'm on 115k now in my 320d and I'm hoping to take it to just shy of 200k before switching to a nearly new one and doing the same again I fancy a 320/325d M Sport Touring with manual gearbox and bog standard wheels and tyres.

I don't think I could bring myself to own another 4-cylinder diesel car (I'm also into 4x4s - proper off-roaders rather than Chelsea tractors - and in a small one of those it'd be acceptable)...but no, lol. Thankfully, my work commute is practically zilch and I car share so I only drive every other day. This gives me options and providing that the Mini proves to be reliable, my next car will hopefully be a Tuscan S. The idea is that if I have a Land Rover and a TVR, hopefully one of them will be running when I need wheels!

[anonymous-user]

Clivey said:

Article said:

More usefully the Twinster car held around 15mph more speed on a skidpan circle thanks to its ability to 'overspeed' the outer wheel, something that much reduces understeer.

And this is what's been missing from on-demand systems so far. Hopefully the upcoming Focus RS is the business and VAG et al follow suit with their future on-demand systems. I'm consistently frustrated by the likes of Audi's "performance" Golf-platform models; some seem to have lots of brilliant ingredients yet fall down when it comes to the chassis / setup.

it's also bolleux!

No way can an "overspeeding" cross axle deliver more static G, unless the original setup of the suspension is soooooo bad that removing load from a steering roadwheel to a non steering one makes than much difference! (and no modern car has been set up that badly for about 30 years!)

[RobM77]

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

A bog standard diesel one I should imagine the faster models are excellent, as the base car seemed very good.

I agree, it's one of the best front wheel drive cars I've driven, but obviously nowhere near as nice to drive a similarly well sorted rear drive car. I'm also quite picky with BMWs; having driven most of them now I know what spec I want for my next car, but finding that might be hard! I'm on 115k now in my 320d and I'm hoping to take it to just shy of 200k before switching to a nearly new one and doing the same again I fancy a 320/325d M Sport Touring with manual gearbox and bog standard wheels and tyres.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 28th March 18:26

For the love of God get a petrol engine and some counselling for your "top of pedal lag" insanity, Rob!

The current 320d is a lag monster - pedal lag, turbo lag, general unresponsiveness...it's got it all. The 320i is a lot better in every respect except fuel economy, and I wonder how much of that is because it is actually prepared to allow fuel to the engine rather than responding to throttle inputs with "Maybe later, but it wont be very efficient, so I'll think about it."

The steering on current BMWs is pretty terrible, I am afraid, so you'll be disappointed in that respect. Audi-like in normal mode; tolerable in Sport mode (but then, in reality, the software has just dialled down the assistance a bit and not added any feel)

That's a shame - I'd feared as much. Part of me wonders whether I should get a last of the line E90 now whilst there are still some fresh ones about.. Mind you, there's always the Jag XE and the Merc C Class - both seem to be well regarded and both give me the space I need for bikes and windsurfing stuff as well as deent RWD handling (from what I've read that is).

Regarding petrol engined BMWs, believe me, if they could make them lag free I'd have one in an instant (330i Touring probably). Prior to the 320d I had a Z4C with the 3.0 (N52?) petrol engine. I bought it because I loved the engine, the size and weight and the handling, but ultimately it had to go because of that damm throttle delay. I also had a go with an E46 330ci about ten years ago, but that was just so bad it only lasted three months before I traded it in for an Elise. I had a brief foray with a 328i Sport Coupé, which I loved, but ultimately it was an old car and keeping it in tip top condition and driving like it should was emptying my wallet (I spent £5500 in two years!), so it had to go. I love petrol engines, so there's a fair chance my current diesel will be my last, but until someone can make a balanced rear drive petrol saloon without a lag I'm sticking with the dark (and rattly and smelly) side!

[ORD]

RobM77 said:

ORD said:

RobM77 said:

A bog standard diesel one I should imagine the faster models are excellent, as the base car seemed very good.

I agree, it's one of the best front wheel drive cars I've driven, but obviously nowhere near as nice to drive a similarly well sorted rear drive car. I'm also quite picky with BMWs; having driven most of them now I know what spec I want for my next car, but finding that might be hard! I'm on 115k now in my 320d and I'm hoping to take it to just shy of 200k before switching to a nearly new one and doing the same again I fancy a 320/325d M Sport Touring with manual gearbox and bog standard wheels and tyres.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 28th March 18:26

For the love of God get a petrol engine and some counselling for your "top of pedal lag" insanity, Rob!

The current 320d is a lag monster - pedal lag, turbo lag, general unresponsiveness...it's got it all. The 320i is a lot better in every respect except fuel economy, and I wonder how much of that is because it is actually prepared to allow fuel to the engine rather than responding to throttle inputs with "Maybe later, but it wont be very efficient, so I'll think about it."

The steering on current BMWs is pretty terrible, I am afraid, so you'll be disappointed in that respect. Audi-like in normal mode; tolerable in Sport mode (but then, in reality, the software has just dialled down the assistance a bit and not added any feel)

That's a shame - I'd feared as much. Part of me wonders whether I should get a last of the line E90 now whilst there are still some fresh ones about.. Mind you, there's always the Jag XE and the Merc C Class - both seem to be well regarded and both give me the space I need for bikes and windsurfing stuff as well as deent RWD handling (from what I've read that is).

Regarding petrol engined BMWs, believe me, if they could make them lag free I'd have one in an instant (330i Touring probably). Prior to the 320d I had a Z4C with the 3.0 (N52?) petrol engine. I bought it because I loved the engine, the size and weight and the handling, but ultimately it had to go because of that damm throttle delay. I also had a go with an E46 330ci about ten years ago, but that was just so bad it only lasted three months before I traded it in for an Elise. I had a brief foray with a 328i Sport Coupé, which I loved, but ultimately it was an old car and keeping it in tip top condition and driving like it should was emptying my wallet (I spent £5500 in two years!), so it had to go. I love petrol engines, so there's a fair chance my current diesel will be my last, but until someone can make a balanced rear drive petrol saloon without a lag I'm sticking with the dark (and rattly and smelly) side!

C-Class? I would rather set fire to my balls. It makes the current 3 series feel like an analogue sports car.

The XE? I wouldn't hold out much hope of a decent petrol engine mated to a manual box, and the steering in Jags is pretty much the same as in BMWs.

The 330i is what I wanted when I got the 320i, to be honest, but they are as rare as a rare thing and mostly in pretty appalling condition.

[PorkRind]

Still tripe compared to a proper 4wd system.

[cerb4.5lee]

PorkRind said:

Still tripe compared to a proper 4wd system.

and I have always thought that too.

[Test driver]

I’ve been laughing reading all the haldex experts that have never driven a car with the system nor understand how it works.

The uneducated tend to stick to their wrong wheel drive and claim the wheelspin and torque steer are a good thing.