RE: Haldex - the truth!
Discussion
Konan said:
And the front prop occasionally going through the side of the gearbox 
Never ignore the knocking.
Never ignore the knocking.
I re-worked and greased the nipples on mine quite often to avoid such worries.
Even without a front viscous diff it was a genuinely decent awd system. Sideways on demand but with a load of fwd security... and that lazy V6 made shooting out of junctions using lots of torque a complete doddle.
With VAG stuff you're probably languishing off boost in such situations too. Pants.
amusingduck said:
Mr Whippy said:
Today the Quattro is just a marketing thing, and to make it work at all they need to actually have four driven wheels.
Huh? They do make systems with full time AWD.Wikipedia said:
Quattro generation V
Starting with the B7 Audi RS4 and the manual transmission version of the 2006 B7 Audi S4. It was adopted in the entire S4 lineup in 2007.[1] and become the standard fitment on all quattro Audis with longitudinal engine layout until replaced in the 2010 RS5.
System type: Permanent asymmetric four-wheel drive.
Torsen type 3 (Type "C") centre differential, 40:60 'default' split front-rear, automatically apportioning up to 80% of the torque to one axle using a 4:1 high-biased center differential. With the aid of ESP, up to 100% of the torque can be transferred to one axle.
Starting with the B7 Audi RS4 and the manual transmission version of the 2006 B7 Audi S4. It was adopted in the entire S4 lineup in 2007.[1] and become the standard fitment on all quattro Audis with longitudinal engine layout until replaced in the 2010 RS5.
System type: Permanent asymmetric four-wheel drive.
Torsen type 3 (Type "C") centre differential, 40:60 'default' split front-rear, automatically apportioning up to 80% of the torque to one axle using a 4:1 high-biased center differential. With the aid of ESP, up to 100% of the torque can be transferred to one axle.
But given that is a handful of cars it doesn't count against the 99.9% of transverse dull engined dull dynamics stuff they sell.
dcb said:
Max_Torque said:
Front Longitudinal, rwd:
Front Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
Off topic, but interesting to note that picture 1 has the engine blockFront Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
over the front wheels, while pic 2 and pic 3 have it well forward
of the front wheels. Typical Audi ?
IIRC, A level Maths many decades ago, polar moment of inertia
says car in pic 1 is better balanced.
BMW will likely go 4WD/FWD on most family/saloon cars at some point, given the marketing advantage that Audi have on QUATTRO, particularly in a country with crap weather 80% of the year.
daveco said:
BMW will likely go 4WD/FWD on most family/saloon cars at some point, given the marketing advantage that Audi have on QUATTRO, particularly in a country with crap weather 80% of the year.
Interesting speculation. Given BMW's marketing of RWD over the last40 years or so, any change to FWD would require some flexibility in their
marketing department.
Of course, it's been possible to buy an 4WD BMW for many years, just not
much in the UK.
Also, I refer the poster to BMW motorbikes, which haven't changed the basic
layout much since the 1920s.
I suspect that once a Bavarian decides a basic format is working fine,
then they are loath to change it.
dcb said:
daveco said:
BMW will likely go 4WD/FWD on most family/saloon cars at some point, given the marketing advantage that Audi have on QUATTRO, particularly in a country with crap weather 80% of the year.
Interesting speculation. Given BMW's marketing of RWD over the last40 years or so, any change to FWD would require some flexibility in their
marketing department.
Of course, it's been possible to buy an 4WD BMW for many years, just not
much in the UK.
Also, I refer the poster to BMW motorbikes, which haven't changed the basic
layout much since the 1920s.
I suspect that once a Bavarian decides a basic format is working fine,
then they are loath to change it.
Only a small minority of us anoraks actually care what wheels are driven.
I just logged on to post, but Max Torque's taken the words (and pics) right out of my mouth!
Of course, it's all down to personal taste, but for me, a front engined rear drive layout with a manual gearbox gives me the most pleasure for my daily driver - any base spec BMW (i.e. no big wheels and skinny tyres etc) does me nicely, although the latest ranges seem to need the M Sport suspension to handle well. Getting back on topic for the thread, something like a Golf R32 would bore me to tears (and yes, I have spent many tens of thousands of miles in all three drivetrains listed above). For track cars I enjoy both FE/RWD and ME/RWD, although the latter is often compromised if designed around a FE/FWD drivetrain. I've no idea what I'll do if FE/RWD becomes a thing of the past with daily drivers.
Max_Torque said:
As usual, the point is well and truly missed once more!
The real reason a front transverse engined car will never "handle" like a front longitudinal engined rwd car is because of the static weight distribution, and very little to do with how much % of torque you send to the back (which incidentally, is also fairly irrelevant). Lets face it, every single 4wd Audi which has been released since 1990 has had "a more rear biased torque distribution" according to the marketers, in which case, by nowthey should be approximately 237% rear biased, and yet, yup, they still understeer (due to the engine and Xmission hanging out the front of the car by about 3 feet....)
The real reason a front transverse engined car will never "handle" like a front longitudinal engined rwd car is because of the static weight distribution, and very little to do with how much % of torque you send to the back (which incidentally, is also fairly irrelevant). Lets face it, every single 4wd Audi which has been released since 1990 has had "a more rear biased torque distribution" according to the marketers, in which case, by nowthey should be approximately 237% rear biased, and yet, yup, they still understeer (due to the engine and Xmission hanging out the front of the car by about 3 feet....)
Max_Torque said:
Front Longitudinal, rwd:
Front Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
'+1' I think is the appropriate phrase on PH.Front Transverse, 4wd
Front Longitudinal, 4wd
Of course, it's all down to personal taste, but for me, a front engined rear drive layout with a manual gearbox gives me the most pleasure for my daily driver - any base spec BMW (i.e. no big wheels and skinny tyres etc) does me nicely, although the latest ranges seem to need the M Sport suspension to handle well. Getting back on topic for the thread, something like a Golf R32 would bore me to tears (and yes, I have spent many tens of thousands of miles in all three drivetrains listed above). For track cars I enjoy both FE/RWD and ME/RWD, although the latter is often compromised if designed around a FE/FWD drivetrain. I've no idea what I'll do if FE/RWD becomes a thing of the past with daily drivers.
daveco said:
Only a small minority of us anoraks actually care what wheels are driven.
I'd challenge that. I think it's only a small minority of anoraks who are able to sketch the above chassis layouts and explain the physics and engineering involved. However, I reckon quite a significant number of people every day climb out of an Audi into a BMW on a test drive and feel an immediate difference, it's just that they can't describe what it is (a BMW salesman once told me this and I can well believe it). BMW's claim regarding the percentage of people who knew their 1 series was rear drive was, if it was a simple question as described, not very useful for informing their decision over their FWD MPV thing. I don't know the washing machine tech that makes my new washing machine better than the old one, and I don't care either, but I like it and can see the benefits!daveco said:
I would tend to agree however with the introduction of the FWD 2-series MPV thingymabob it is clear that BMW's shareholders are being prioritised.
Agreed, the shareholders are vital.daveco said:
When continuous growth and profit are the number one I cannot see how they can continue to stick with a system and set up that is more costly than their competitors.
Cost isn't an issue. BMWs have been expensive for years. They are a premium product.Culturally, a German will always prefer quality over price every day of the week.
Just one of their differences from Brits and folks from the USA,
who seem to be very focused in on price.
Corkman said:
"...Ford claims 70 per cent for its new Focus RS (not confirmed as Haldex, but likely)..."
"...The most famous recent convert is the Ford Focus RS, which has GKN's Twinster system coupled to the all-wheel drive set-up..."
erm.... ok.... I'm confused....
The Haldex will be what sends the torque to the rear axle. The amount of torque will depend on the front to rear differential slip."...The most famous recent convert is the Ford Focus RS, which has GKN's Twinster system coupled to the all-wheel drive set-up..."
erm.... ok.... I'm confused....
The GKN twister replaces the rear diff and decides how to transmit the torque given to it by the Haldex between the two rear wheels. It can effectively over driven the outside wheel giving a torque vectoring effect.
This driveline is already on the Evoque.
I think we're going to see alot more 4WD cars across the board, as its a relatively easy way to bring the 0-60 down for bragging rights.
That said, I'm rather fond of the system in my S3, just allows me to not worry a great deal about getting the power down and just go for it. It understeers slightly but is nowhere as near as bad as the previous model in my opinion.
That said, I'm rather fond of the system in my S3, just allows me to not worry a great deal about getting the power down and just go for it. It understeers slightly but is nowhere as near as bad as the previous model in my opinion.
Spooge said:
I think we're going to see alot more 4WD cars across the board, as its a relatively easy way to bring the 0-60 down for bragging rights.
That said, I'm rather fond of the system in my S3, just allows me to not worry a great deal about getting the power down and just go for it. It understeers slightly but is nowhere as near as bad as the previous model in my opinion.
Do you have the latest s3?That said, I'm rather fond of the system in my S3, just allows me to not worry a great deal about getting the power down and just go for it. It understeers slightly but is nowhere as near as bad as the previous model in my opinion.
RobM77 said:
daveco said:
Only a small minority of us anoraks actually care what wheels are driven.
I'd challenge that. I think it's only a small minority of anoraks who are able to sketch the above chassis layouts and explain the physics and engineering involved. However, I reckon quite a significant number of people every day climb out of an Audi into a BMW on a test drive and feel an immediate difference, it's just that they can't describe what it is (a BMW salesman once told me this and I can well believe it). BMW's claim regarding the percentage of people who knew their 1 series was rear drive was, if it was a simple question as described, not very useful for informing their decision over their FWD MPV thing. I don't know the washing machine tech that makes my new washing machine better than the old one, and I don't care either, but I like it and can see the benefits!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff