RE: Porsche 991 goes all-turbo
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And this is exactly what Porsche is doing, making the car better in empirical terms. A car that is more powerful using the same or smaller engine displacement, a car that is more fuel efficient, a car that is faster, a car with more better safety features etc is better - these things can be actually measured. How is that not progress (and by extension, how is that not better)? If the car performs better around the 'ring or is more comfortable to live with day-to-day then how is that bad? As some-one else said here earlier, paying less tax on the car whilst generating more profit for Porsche is what this is all about. New markets demand manufacturers to comply with their needs/laws/tax brackets. Enthusiasts/purists are all too quick to forget that last point - most cars a made to make a company money first and foremost and Porsche certainly isn't the only premium brand switching to turbo power to maximise their market reach.
Who decides what "merits" are? How does one empirically define a change as better or worse? A change in engine note or throttle response is worse because of turbos? For most buyers, probably not enough to prevent them wanting to own one - remember, we're not talking about Caterams here! A change in steering feel is worse because it's electric and not hydraulic? Same answer. Ultimately those are matters of opinion, not hard fact.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
See what I mean? For you. What you personally like isn't representative of the entire market. Witness the success of Tesla's Model S; it proves that the market it's aimed at simply does not care about the things you care about, like an engines noise/character/whatever; it still outperforms pretty much every other road car in a traffic light sprint (yeah, that's the stuff people actually care about!), whilst being cheap to run, comfortable and convenient and it's still been a resounding success regardless of your personal opinion. Whether you like it or not, that car represents progress and I'm excited simply because if this is their first effort, what more potential can be fulfilled?As I said before if you don't like the new cars, you can always buy an old one!
AM7 said:
I find the "standard" flat-sixes a bit rough sounding, I mean the GT/RS units absolutely howl but I'm not a massive fan of the normal ones. I think with a bit of work, you could have boost and blow-off noises, tied with the manual gearbox and rear wheel drive it's definitely something that appeals to me anyway. Of course it's a different kind of sound, but I like it 
This man gets my thinking. I like him.anonymous said:
[redacted]
I know what you mean, but when driving a go-kart do you care about the noise? I love the character and sounds of different engines, but without that cars can still be enjoyable to drive.Petrol and diesel cars will be available in large numbers until the self driving car starts to become available for a reasonable price. I'm thinking that is at least a decade off? Used cars will be available forever, and I predict many car clubs popping up so you can still drive yourself for pleasure. I also predict track days becoming more popular, but unfortunately I can't predict lotto numbers.
It doesn't sound anything like the current N/a engine in that clip so it's had the noise sucked out of it and I doubt very much the C2S will get 500hp when the current turbo has 520hp in fact no way.
Gen2 "S" 911s usually get the same HP as the outgoing performance pack model so I would expect something around the 430-440hp mark max, the C2 usually comes up to just under the outgoing "S" model so I expect about 390-400 from the base gen2 model.
Gen2 "S" 911s usually get the same HP as the outgoing performance pack model so I would expect something around the 430-440hp mark max, the C2 usually comes up to just under the outgoing "S" model so I expect about 390-400 from the base gen2 model.
Edited by Wills2 on Wednesday 25th March 20:14
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I still stand by my statement. I'm not disagreeing with your point regarding metric quantification but to make progress sometimes compromises have to be accepted for the greater good. Turbo's may not make an engine sound better (matter of opinion again!) but again car makers main priority is to make money, not keep enthusiasts happy.Consider this example; mp3 music files sounds crap compared to really good vinyl or even a DSD CD; empirically this is true but in reality the majority of the market simply doesn't care mostly because the inherent comprise is worth the overall benefit - the progress that has been made in this instance would be the fact file sizes are smaller and one can share/stream them more conveniently without the need for bulky playback systems. Most people would actually struggle to hear the difference too (and many younger people would prefer the sound of the newer format over the old ones!).
You unfortunately represent the minority.
kambites said:
I'd imagine they'll rename the "turbo" to something a bit more... distinctive. 911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
iloveboost said:
kambites said:
I'd imagine they'll rename the "turbo" to something a bit more... distinctive. 911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
unsprung said:
We're living at an interesting time.
There have always been large-displacement engines and small-displacement engines. But these have not tended to overlap in terms of application. (at least for most car shoppers)
So, for the moment, we have quite different philosophies coexisting. Not to mention the philosophy that does away with internal combustion, entirely.
About the second-generation 991: exciting. And +1 to Motorrad's comment about throttle response.
Nice post.There have always been large-displacement engines and small-displacement engines. But these have not tended to overlap in terms of application. (at least for most car shoppers)
So, for the moment, we have quite different philosophies coexisting. Not to mention the philosophy that does away with internal combustion, entirely.
About the second-generation 991: exciting. And +1 to Motorrad's comment about throttle response.
J4CKO said:
Ah, but mine is more Turboey than yours.
Porsche already have this issue with the Cayenne & Macan ranges will soon have it with the Panamera when they drop the naturally aspirated V8 from the GTS & replace it with the V6 turbo from the Cayenne.Porsche aren't making the 911 all turbos for the fun of it - legislation is the reason, it's the reason for the loss of the air cooled engine & the electric PAS. The new turbo engine on paper will be better & on a day to day basis will be better - the sound may not be as pleasing & the throttle response not as pure - like the 7 speed manual & the electric PAS, Porsche will sort it out.
mrclav said:
Why is it not a good move?
Progress means just that - out with the old, in with the new. People complained when Porsche started water-cooling engines. They didn't get the bigger picture because what Porsche was doing was inconvenient to them, and only them. The rest of the world simply shrugged and carried on enjoying the new machines!
Do you honestly think VAG, one of the worlds largest and most successful car manufacturers with some of the brightest minds, best engineers, marketers and number-crunchers/accountants on the planet, are going to make a cock-up of a product that has slowly evolved into the most iconic sports car in history? Because I can assure you the market that actually buys cars like this will simply not care whether the next base model Carrera has a turbo in it or not. It will still sell and it will still be a great car that is comfortable, frugal, fast, enjoyable to own and won't try and kill someone for making a mistake in it.
If you don't think it's a good move then don't buy one or simply buy an old one - it's not like a Carrera having a turbo in it means all old Porsches are suddenly non-existent. Meanwhile, the market this is aimed at will buy a new one and enjoy it for what it is - a great sports car.
Progress is used as an excuse for many regrettable changes - just look at post-war architecture. In this case, it is the spoiling of a really sweet naturally-aspirated engine by following this craze for downsizing and turbocharging. I wouldn't mind the downsizing if it was accompanied by a 9000rpm redline in all cars, but instead we're getting dull turbocharged engines. I've never owned a forced-induction car in my life and I never want to. Natural aspiration is where it's at as far as driver enjoyment is concerned. And yes, I really do think VAG are more likely to make an almighty cock-up of this than just about any other car company on earth. They've already completely buggered up Bentley and Lamborghini, now they're doing the same to Porsche. PDK only GT3, EPAS... there are a lot of people who still want to be able to buy a naturally-aspirated, manual-gearbox, hydraulically-steered 911 in both Carrera and GT3 forms. This is a prime example of a carmaker forcing the technology on the market and then saying there's no market for anything else.Progress means just that - out with the old, in with the new. People complained when Porsche started water-cooling engines. They didn't get the bigger picture because what Porsche was doing was inconvenient to them, and only them. The rest of the world simply shrugged and carried on enjoying the new machines!
Do you honestly think VAG, one of the worlds largest and most successful car manufacturers with some of the brightest minds, best engineers, marketers and number-crunchers/accountants on the planet, are going to make a cock-up of a product that has slowly evolved into the most iconic sports car in history? Because I can assure you the market that actually buys cars like this will simply not care whether the next base model Carrera has a turbo in it or not. It will still sell and it will still be a great car that is comfortable, frugal, fast, enjoyable to own and won't try and kill someone for making a mistake in it.
If you don't think it's a good move then don't buy one or simply buy an old one - it's not like a Carrera having a turbo in it means all old Porsches are suddenly non-existent. Meanwhile, the market this is aimed at will buy a new one and enjoy it for what it is - a great sports car.
Perhaps - but look what a job people had buying manual 360s and 430s. I think I read that there's only ONE manual 599 in the whole world. Manual 575s aren't exactly plentiful either. Ferrari deliberately made life difficult for manual buyers - I've heard that they had a six-week lead time on F1-box cars, but six months for a manual. It was wilfully engineered to force a situation where the market overwhelmingly bought paddles - not because they wanted paddles, but because they didn't want to wait half a year for their car. There are a lot of people who do still enjoy using a manual gearbox - which is why they continue to account for over 80% of UK car sales - but the performance-car sector is desperate to be seen not to stagnate, to be technologically innovative, regardless of whether that innovation makes for a better, more enjoyable car. And what is the fate of so many paddle-shift supercars? To be seen banging off the rev limiter in neutral and first gear in Knightsbridge and Dubai. No, I would value my loyal customers who know what they want over those who're simply after another bling trinket to show off.
Based on what I heard from a friend who bought a 997, he was heavily pressured by the salesman into ticking the PDK box on grounds of resale value. From what I've seen online of Ferrari production, I very much doubt that batches had anything to do with it. US market demands manuals because they're perceived as more performance-orientated in a country where the ability to "drive stick" is a rarity (I've read and heard many stories about would-be car thieves being foiled by manuals). Unfortunately, even there, the manual M5 doesn't sell well because BMW did nothing to change the gear ratios (it's just a bog standard 5-series 6-speed manual) and so the gearbox is often felt to be a mismatch to the engine. Might be better with the F10 turbo V8, but not with the E60 V10.
And yes, I know how you feel about new cars. If I had money to burn (which I don't), some of the recently-defunct stuff (e.g. M156-engined W212 E63 AMG estate) might have tempted me, but there's really not much around that I like now. Bentley Mulsanne (still a proper Bentley despite VAG's best efforts to ruin the brand)... Aston Martin DB9 (not sure I like the facelift so much as the beautifully clean original)... quite like some of the current JLR stuff, but would prefer L322 to L405 Rangie... oddly quite fancy a Citroen C5, with hydraulic suspension and a petrol engine (ideally a V6)... the Italians aren't making a thing I'd fancy... Not sure I care for the current angular Cadillacs, and the Corvette is just too vulgar, as much as I like it... wouldn't be seen dead in any current BMW, given how profoundly they've lost the plot with styling and dynamics (a shame because I've had four over twenty years and all have been rewarding at times, though equally all have been deeply frustrating, well, except the current one)... Vauxhall VXR8 now too pricey and too gadget-laden... Ford don't bring in any of the interesting stuff like the Aussie Falcon (which, with the VXR8, will die soon and not be replaced, with FoMoCo and GM pulling out of Oz)... I'm starting to wonder what I'll be driving a decade from now, other than perhaps pouring money into saving and restoring cars of the 1990s and 2000s...
And yes, I know how you feel about new cars. If I had money to burn (which I don't), some of the recently-defunct stuff (e.g. M156-engined W212 E63 AMG estate) might have tempted me, but there's really not much around that I like now. Bentley Mulsanne (still a proper Bentley despite VAG's best efforts to ruin the brand)... Aston Martin DB9 (not sure I like the facelift so much as the beautifully clean original)... quite like some of the current JLR stuff, but would prefer L322 to L405 Rangie... oddly quite fancy a Citroen C5, with hydraulic suspension and a petrol engine (ideally a V6)... the Italians aren't making a thing I'd fancy... Not sure I care for the current angular Cadillacs, and the Corvette is just too vulgar, as much as I like it... wouldn't be seen dead in any current BMW, given how profoundly they've lost the plot with styling and dynamics (a shame because I've had four over twenty years and all have been rewarding at times, though equally all have been deeply frustrating, well, except the current one)... Vauxhall VXR8 now too pricey and too gadget-laden... Ford don't bring in any of the interesting stuff like the Aussie Falcon (which, with the VXR8, will die soon and not be replaced, with FoMoCo and GM pulling out of Oz)... I'm starting to wonder what I'll be driving a decade from now, other than perhaps pouring money into saving and restoring cars of the 1990s and 2000s...
iloveboost said:
Well why not rename the whole range nineties JDM style?
911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
If Porsche had thend sense of humour it'd make me want to own one a lot more. I'd love to see the badge of a 911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty 911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
iloveboost said:
Well why not rename the whole range nineties JDM style?
911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
911 diet poor blowers.
911 premiums xclusive Turbos.
911 special mega forza super boosty.
911 diet scaffold limited spec real boosty.
911 GT28 hyper extra scaffold light speedoh
911 Walter Rohls maximum blitzkrieg very RS
I'll take mine with extra blitzkrieg please...
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff