RE: Porsche 991 goes all-turbo
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
It's still evidence that buyers are being put under pressure to choose paddles over stick.
Yes, because it's a cost option, not because of some great conspiracy to destroy driver enjoyment.ETA: I think cmoose was on the money with this:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Edited by tomjol on Thursday 26th March 08:49
Pretty much every manufacturer has gone this way,so it was sadly inevitable that Porsche would follow suit. Interestingly,I had previously heard there would be a transition period when they offered both turbo and non-turbo 991s. Presumably this idea is done.
I wonder what happens to the much-delayed GT3RS. They will be built this year,but does this mean there is only a single run of N/A cars?. It makes product positioning of the GT3 tricky, and I would assume no GT2. There is a Rumour of a very short run of lighter,even tracker cars (similar to the 4.0 run at the end of the 997). No idea if they will do it.
I wonder what happens to the much-delayed GT3RS. They will be built this year,but does this mean there is only a single run of N/A cars?. It makes product positioning of the GT3 tricky, and I would assume no GT2. There is a Rumour of a very short run of lighter,even tracker cars (similar to the 4.0 run at the end of the 997). No idea if they will do it.
mrclav said:
still stand by my statement. I'm not disagreeing with your point regarding metric quantification but to make progress sometimes compromises have to be accepted for the greater good. Turbo's may not make an engine sound better (matter of opinion again!) but again car makers main priority is to make money, not keep enthusiasts happy.
Consider this example; mp3 music files sounds crap compared to really good vinyl or even a DSD CD; empirically this is true but in reality the majority of the market simply doesn't care mostly because the inherent comprise is worth the overall benefit - the progress that has been made in this instance would be the fact file sizes are smaller and one can share/stream them more conveniently without the need for bulky playback systems. Most people would actually struggle to hear the difference too (and many younger people would prefer the sound of the newer format over the old ones!).
You unfortunately represent the minority.
Minority of what? I think quite a lot of petrolheads think sound is important.. Consider this example; mp3 music files sounds crap compared to really good vinyl or even a DSD CD; empirically this is true but in reality the majority of the market simply doesn't care mostly because the inherent comprise is worth the overall benefit - the progress that has been made in this instance would be the fact file sizes are smaller and one can share/stream them more conveniently without the need for bulky playback systems. Most people would actually struggle to hear the difference too (and many younger people would prefer the sound of the newer format over the old ones!).
You unfortunately represent the minority.
RoverP6B said:
Progress is used as an excuse for many regrettable changes - just look at post-war architecture. In this case, it is the spoiling of a really sweet naturally-aspirated engine by following this craze for downsizing and turbocharging. I wouldn't mind the downsizing if it was accompanied by a 9000rpm redline in all cars, but instead we're getting dull turbocharged engines. I've never owned a forced-induction car in my life and I never want to. Natural aspiration is where it's at as far as driver enjoyment is concerned. And yes, I really do think VAG are more likely to make an almighty cock-up of this than just about any other car company on earth. They've already completely buggered up Bentley and Lamborghini, now they're doing the same to Porsche. PDK only GT3, EPAS... there are a lot of people who still want to be able to buy a naturally-aspirated, manual-gearbox, hydraulically-steered 911 in both Carrera and GT3 forms. This is a prime example of a carmaker forcing the technology on the market and then saying there's no market for anything else.
Porsche have progressed in good ways, but bad ways too.They could easily use an NA motor in the 911 for another decade at least if they wanted to, but they know punters no longer care because most of the boom in volume they've seen over the last few decades are from buyers with cash but don't care what the car is actually like. They just want a 911 and it to have numbers that get big quickly on the dials.
So they boost volume to people who don't care, and dilute what people used to like about them. They make oodles more money. They make even more by making them all automatic for whatever CO2 fudges and customer tax reasons they can.
It's good business.
But all new Porsches are pretty dull now. I wouldn't buy any of them. Only the Boxster really interests me now but that has grown in size again to what feels like silly proportions. Even the most basic models are gonna be too big and fast to really have fun with down most country roads.
Give me a 996 GT3 any day of the week. Small, narrow, revvy and oodles plenty fast enough for any UK road where you'd care how fast you were driving for fun to begin with!
Dave
Jees what's wrong with people on here? Better fuel economy, easier to drive, more comfortable? These are not appropriate Pistonheads values to embrace for a sportscar. There's a reason people still buy GT3's and GT3 RS's when they could buy a Turbo which is objectively faster in the real world and the reason is driver involvement which some luddites like me still value. Also, b
ks to fuel economy. If you are worried about that then maybe a 911 is not the car for you.
ks to fuel economy. If you are worried about that then maybe a 911 is not the car for you. RoverP6B said:
Where is the business case for the investment in the new engines? And I'd rather have a gutsy N/A engine with the more plush, comfortable Carrera interior & suspension.
A vastly easier route to achieving the fleet average CO2 glide path they will have negotiated with the EU, meaning they can invest more time and effort into things we care about like making a good car.It seems Porsche have finally gone over the edge of the cost/benefit curve on developing their naturally aspirated engines, and decided to bite the bullet. It may take them a generation or so to get it truly right, but it's better than sinking more years of R&D budget into something that will inevitably need replacing anyway.
You simply can't say "fuel consumption isn't important". In this climate, nobody can ignore it.
McSam said:
vastly easier route to achieving the fleet average CO2 glide path they will have negotiated with the EU, meaning they can invest more time and effort into things we care about like making a good car.
It seems Porsche have finally gone over the edge of the cost/benefit curve on developing their naturally aspirated engines, and decided to bite the bullet. It may take them a generation or so to get it truly right, but it's better than sinking more years of R&D budget into something that will inevitably need replacing anyway.
You simply can't say "fuel consumption isn't important". In this climate, nobody can ignore it.
Erm, the engine is one of the core points of a car like this... well it was to a larger demographic who used to buy a Porsche than it is today.It seems Porsche have finally gone over the edge of the cost/benefit curve on developing their naturally aspirated engines, and decided to bite the bullet. It may take them a generation or so to get it truly right, but it's better than sinking more years of R&D budget into something that will inevitably need replacing anyway.
You simply can't say "fuel consumption isn't important". In this climate, nobody can ignore it.
Fuel consumption is important, but not to anyone who buys the cars. It's only important because of fleet average CO2 and tax for the consumer.
From a pence per mile perspective the new cars are just as expensive as the old ones as fuel costs make up such a small part of the running costs assuming sensible mileage.
Porsche are doing this to make THEMSELVES more money. They are not doing it for the end user.
And R&D etc, turbo isn't all that much more efficient once we throw in hybrid systems for the transients where a turbo under boost becomes more efficient.
There is every reason to think that R&D now on turbo will be wasted if Porsche then go hybrid in 5 years any way.
They could just go hybrid now and utilise their well developed NA motors.
Jeez, I'm not sure why I even care. Porsche are now just a high priced fashion brand with top-trump numberwang in mind more and more. Like I'd ever bother buying one of these newer ones.
Dave
Odd. I'm not sure I understand your point about hybridisation. There's no way this new turbocharged unit will be thrown out when Porsche start hybridising their range, which they will eventually, so what makes you think it's a waste of money? Hybrid tech remains immature, expensive and of questionable image in the volume sports car sector, whereas turbochargers are extremely well developed, already used by Porsche and obviously a hugely more cost-effective approach to improving efficiency.
I made no mention of real ownership costs. They're not very relevant to this decision. Corporate average fuel economy and emissions targets are the dominating reasons, like I said in my original post.
I put a positive spin on the reasons for their R&D decisions, but take their motives however you like - more profit or better cars, it's not relevant, they have decided to go down the turbocharging route now rather than later because they consider it the most cost-effective approach to efficiency. Efficiency improvements aren't their decision, the requirement is forced upon them, and they're taking what they consider the best steps towards it. I happen to agree with them.
Do you reckon you know better than Porsche?
I made no mention of real ownership costs. They're not very relevant to this decision. Corporate average fuel economy and emissions targets are the dominating reasons, like I said in my original post.
I put a positive spin on the reasons for their R&D decisions, but take their motives however you like - more profit or better cars, it's not relevant, they have decided to go down the turbocharging route now rather than later because they consider it the most cost-effective approach to efficiency. Efficiency improvements aren't their decision, the requirement is forced upon them, and they're taking what they consider the best steps towards it. I happen to agree with them.
Do you reckon you know better than Porsche?
I know better than Porsche for what I'd want in a Porsche.
But as I noted earlier in the thread, what Porsche are doing is exactly right for them and then only. To think they're doing it to give you a purer sports car experience or anything like that is just bonkers.
Sad that you now need the GT3 to get an NA 911!
But as I noted earlier in the thread, what Porsche are doing is exactly right for them and then only. To think they're doing it to give you a purer sports car experience or anything like that is just bonkers.
Sad that you now need the GT3 to get an NA 911!
framerateuk said:
I'll take mine with extra blitzkrieg please...
Also when engaged it plays this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx21UHzQKmQ
Also customers tell us they rarely take their 911 Turbo on track days, so you now get a free toaster on top of the dashboard.
Al 450 said:
Jees what's wrong with people on here? Better fuel economy, easier to drive, more comfortable? These are not appropriate Pistonheads values to embrace for a sportscar. There's a reason people still buy GT3's and GT3 RS's when they could buy a Turbo which is objectively faster in the real world and the reason is driver involvement which some luddites like me still value. Also, bks to fuel economy. If you are worried about that then maybe a 911 is not the car for you.
Downsized turbo engines give no real-world improvement in economy, and certainly don't make the car any easier to drive or more comfortable. Comfort and economy do matter - but this is not the way to go about achieving either.ks to fuel economy. If you are worried about that then maybe a 911 is not the car for you.Interesting debate. Trying to decide between ordering the last of the big NA Carreras (991 GTS) or taking a punt on the facelift "turbo" Carrera. Not an easy decision to make at this point. Test drove the 991 GTS at the weekend and it ticks a lot of boxes for me, but ultimately the NA engine in it is nothing special. It does the business but it's not the best part of the car. So leaves me wondering what all the fuss is about. I can't really see the turbo 6 cyl engine being any worse and could even be better in some ways. Until anyone actually drives one it's just pure speculation. I've always steered well away from turbo engines in the past (except for Diesels!), but willing to keep an open mind on this one.
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