RE: Porsche 996 Turbo: Catch it while you can
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
I blame the dodgy dealers rather than owners. An owner can do what they like with their car, and no doubt they got shafted at trade in, but for a dealer to start selling these cars is questionable, more so at the prices being asked for!
Bubble.
Bubble.
as said earlier dealers you would be not trust buying a Mondeo from let alone a high performance bit of Pork 
1. PH (or some other prominent motoring source) writes an article such as this.
2. People think, "oh, I'd better buy one of those whilst I still can."
3. Dealers, having read the same article and sensing an opportunity, put their prices up until you end up with truly offensive stuff such as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... (there's another ad even more offensive).
4. Other publications see the price rise and write similar articles, compounding the problem.
5. Repeat.
I know things are worth what people are willing to pay, but sometimes it's articles such as this which change what people are willing to pay. In short, they are self-fulfilling prophesies.
I once owned a 2002 X50 manual with about 50k miles. I sold it in 2011 for £32-33k. I feel qualified to confirm it wasn't worth any more. Of course if you're buying it at £50k hoping to make even more money in the game then good luck to you. If you're buying it because you think that's the best car you can get for the money, it really isn't. Budget £3k for a new suspension before you drive it home and prepare to be mildly impressed by how 'capable' it is.
PH: I don't see it as your remit to start giving investment advice and thus distort the market. By all means, if there's a car which you feel has been overlooked and deserves a second chance, tell us about it (and I know sometimes you do).
But articles such as this one are fundamentally misconceived. Would you write an article about a car you felt was seriously over-valued?? Why not? The damage is the same.
2. People think, "oh, I'd better buy one of those whilst I still can."
3. Dealers, having read the same article and sensing an opportunity, put their prices up until you end up with truly offensive stuff such as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... (there's another ad even more offensive).
4. Other publications see the price rise and write similar articles, compounding the problem.
5. Repeat.
I know things are worth what people are willing to pay, but sometimes it's articles such as this which change what people are willing to pay. In short, they are self-fulfilling prophesies.
I once owned a 2002 X50 manual with about 50k miles. I sold it in 2011 for £32-33k. I feel qualified to confirm it wasn't worth any more. Of course if you're buying it at £50k hoping to make even more money in the game then good luck to you. If you're buying it because you think that's the best car you can get for the money, it really isn't. Budget £3k for a new suspension before you drive it home and prepare to be mildly impressed by how 'capable' it is.
PH: I don't see it as your remit to start giving investment advice and thus distort the market. By all means, if there's a car which you feel has been overlooked and deserves a second chance, tell us about it (and I know sometimes you do).
But articles such as this one are fundamentally misconceived. Would you write an article about a car you felt was seriously over-valued?? Why not? The damage is the same.
Edited by macky17 on Friday 24th April 15:05
Macky I agree with you but hyping up vehicles by publications has existed at least since I bought my first ever magazine, and no doubt prior to that.
"can't get any cheaper" "only way is up" "get in while you can" bla bla bla.
And property of course.
Sometimes there is some value to that advice, even ignoring the self fulfilling factor, sometimes not.
It pays to buy wisely independently of advice. There certainly appear to be some ridiculously priced vehicles around at the moment and I am not just referring to 996 Turbos or even Porsches. And some of them, perhaps the less ambitious but ambitiously priced nonetheless, sell, but IMHO in many cases the true value is just not there.
Don't forget that many journos are just enthusiastic folk who also happen to be clueless, must be, judging by the kerrapp written and poor advice given on all aspects of the vehicle in question, not just its value.
"can't get any cheaper" "only way is up" "get in while you can" bla bla bla.
And property of course.
Sometimes there is some value to that advice, even ignoring the self fulfilling factor, sometimes not.
It pays to buy wisely independently of advice. There certainly appear to be some ridiculously priced vehicles around at the moment and I am not just referring to 996 Turbos or even Porsches. And some of them, perhaps the less ambitious but ambitiously priced nonetheless, sell, but IMHO in many cases the true value is just not there.
Don't forget that many journos are just enthusiastic folk who also happen to be clueless, must be, judging by the kerrapp written and poor advice given on all aspects of the vehicle in question, not just its value.
macky17 said:
I once owned a 2002 X50 manual with about 50k miles. I sold it in 2011 for £32-33k. I feel qualified to confirm it wasn't worth any more. Of course if you're buying it at £50k hoping to make even more money in the game then good luck to you. If you're buying it because you think that's the best car you can get for the money, it really isn't. Budget £3k for a new suspension before you drive it home and prepare to be mildly impressed by how 'capable' it is.
The above is your opinion which I respect. Having owned a car and sold at a lower price you'd be loathed to pay the higher current asking prices.Sure there are ex-996 and 997 GT3 owners who think the current asking prices are mad. I look at the 3.2 Carrera's I've owned and although they were fantastic (possibly a little rose tinted view) they weren't anywhere near my current 996 turbo X50 which is in another league.
Pound for pound there is little to touch the 996 turbo, it was widely recognised as the performance bargain and prices for good examples now reflect that.
What would you offer as an alternative in the £35-45k price bracket?
g7jhp said:
The above is your opinion which I respect. Having owned a car and sold at a lower price you'd be loathed to pay the higher current asking prices.
Sure there are ex-996 and 997 GT3 owners who think the current asking prices are mad. I look at the 3.2 Carrera's I've owned and although they were fantastic (possibly a little rose tinted view) they weren't anywhere near my current 996 turbo X50 which is in another league.
Pound for pound there is little to touch the 996 turbo, it was widely recognised as the performance bargain and prices for good examples now reflect that.
What would you offer as an alternative in the £35-45k price bracket?
But I get it with the Gt3, I really do. There you have something truly driver-focused and uncompromising (in as much as a road car can ever be), not to mention analogue and unlikely to be repeated. Look at how people are lapping up the gt4 as the last chance to buy a new Porsche in that vein. I'm not going to put the 996TT down, especially as you own one, but it's not the last word in involvement or excitement, for all its ability.Sure there are ex-996 and 997 GT3 owners who think the current asking prices are mad. I look at the 3.2 Carrera's I've owned and although they were fantastic (possibly a little rose tinted view) they weren't anywhere near my current 996 turbo X50 which is in another league.
Pound for pound there is little to touch the 996 turbo, it was widely recognised as the performance bargain and prices for good examples now reflect that.
What would you offer as an alternative in the £35-45k price bracket?
£35-45k? What are the criteria? Everyday useable super fast car then yes either very low mileage 996TT or GTR. Open the net wider to second car/toy and the list of cars I'd prefer would be long indeed, including what I own now.
But we're not talking 35-45; apparently a low mileage 996TT is now worth 55-60k! Would it still be your choice at that money?
Edited by macky17 on Friday 24th April 22:51
They are great great cars. Perhaps not the best 10/10th on the limit choice to some but as an everyday super car ownership proposition I see no better. I would echo being wary of cars that have been sitting - looked at a few and turned out to need a lot of corrosion related work. Buy one that has recently had the rads (inc air con) done / protective mesh installed and wear and tear items in good nick and you are looking at a relatively inexpensive super car ownership proposition if you don't do big miles.
I ended up with a silver manual x50 with DMS remap so good for c500bhp and it feels very neutral to rwd bias so good fun yet predictable. Nothing has gone wrong in my year of ownership. Had it inspected by 9 excellence (excellent) and services by JAZ (again very good).
Debate I have now is stick with it or move to a newer 997TT or perhaps R8 V10 for some more depreciation (appreciating??) free fun.
I ended up with a silver manual x50 with DMS remap so good for c500bhp and it feels very neutral to rwd bias so good fun yet predictable. Nothing has gone wrong in my year of ownership. Had it inspected by 9 excellence (excellent) and services by JAZ (again very good).
Debate I have now is stick with it or move to a newer 997TT or perhaps R8 V10 for some more depreciation (appreciating??) free fun.
macky17 said:
But I get it with the Gt3, I really do. There you have something truly driver-focused and uncompromising (in as much as a road car can ever be), not to mention analogue and unlikely to be repeated. Look at how people are lapping up the gt4 as the last chance to buy a new Porsche in that vein. I'm not going to put the 996TT down, especially as you own one, but it's not the last word in involvement or excitement, for all its ability.
£35-45k? What are the criteria? Everyday useable super fast car then yes either very low mileage 996TT or GTR. Open the net wider to second car/toy and the list of cars I'd prefer would be long indeed, including what I own now.
But we're not talking 35-45; apparently a low mileage 996TT is now worth 55-60k! Would it still be your choice at that money?
Fair point, some find the 911 turbo's at little sterile as they are so good at what they do, especially it you're looking for a rawer weekend toy. Your Noble looks great, but it's a different beast. For a weekend toy I'd be looking a hot Caterham's R400/R500 (but they can be restricted when the weather is poor).£35-45k? What are the criteria? Everyday useable super fast car then yes either very low mileage 996TT or GTR. Open the net wider to second car/toy and the list of cars I'd prefer would be long indeed, including what I own now.
But we're not talking 35-45; apparently a low mileage 996TT is now worth 55-60k! Would it still be your choice at that money?
The nice thing with the 996 turbo is it can multi-task so well and in all weathers - which isn't focused enough for some.
Agreed, they are very useable and leave you with plenty of options all year. But at 55-60k you'd still have one before anything else? As you own one I realise that's an unfair question so feel free to take it as rhetorical.
For the record, I would LOVE to be able to afford to run a 996 turbo as a daily alongside the Noble for weekends but that is absolutely how it would get used.
For the record, I would LOVE to be able to afford to run a 996 turbo as a daily alongside the Noble for weekends but that is absolutely how it would get used.
Edited by macky17 on Saturday 25th April 12:45
macky17 said:
Agreed, they are very useable and leave you with plenty of options all year. But at 55-60k you'd still have one before anything else? As you own one I realise that's an unfair question so feel free to take it as rhetorical.
For the record, I would LOVE to be able to afford to run a 996 turbo as a daily alongside the Noble for weekends but that is absolutely how it would get used.
Sorry dodged the £55-60k question! For the record, I would LOVE to be able to afford to run a 996 turbo as a daily alongside the Noble for weekends but that is absolutely how it would get used.
Back to my original point. You tend to attribute a value to a car based on what you've paid.
As I bought car back in 2012 when values were lower I don't see the 996 turbo as a £55-60k car.
I'd have moved to a 997 GT3 for £55-60k as a single car, but those have also moved to £70k-£80k.
The trouble is there is a lack of real comparable alternatives to the 996 turbo as a single all rounder.
Often the solution is to buy two cars one daily and weekend - Audi B7 RS4 Avant and a Caterham R300.
Luckily I'm happy with the X50.
Hopefully we'll see a correction and everything will return to a more reasonable level.
Lost soul said:
It is a pretty ridiculous situation when a 996 TT's are for sale way above the 997
I don't think that's correct at all.Whatever good is to be said about the 996T, unless thinking goes perverse, there should always be a price differential in favour of the 997T.
Probably you are comparing a 15k miler 996 with an 80k miler 997 if you have that impression. In which case if I was not going to rack up many miles I'd also consider the two to have inverted values, but still apples and oranges, so unfair.
996TT02 said:
I don't think that's correct at all.
Whatever good is to be said about the 996T, unless thinking goes perverse, there should always be a price differential in favour of the 997T.
Probably you are comparing a 15k miler 996 with an 80k miler 997 if you have that impression. In which case if I was not going to rack up many miles I'd also consider the two to have inverted values, but still apples and oranges, so unfair.
Take a browse , its closer than you think and is as I say Whatever good is to be said about the 996T, unless thinking goes perverse, there should always be a price differential in favour of the 997T.
Probably you are comparing a 15k miler 996 with an 80k miler 997 if you have that impression. In which case if I was not going to rack up many miles I'd also consider the two to have inverted values, but still apples and oranges, so unfair.
Lost soul said:
Take a browse , its closer than you think and is as I say
People thinking the 996T is the new 993T.But as I said many pages ago, I've seen maybe one 993T in my life. I've seen more 996T than I can shake a stick at. The volumes are oodles higher for 996T, 997T more so.
It's gonna be an interesting 18-24 months for 996T owners who bought recently!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Nissan GTR would be where my money would go now... though they are a bit big where the 996T is an almost perfect size full stop for a properly usable road car.
Dave
Just had a look and the GTR is about 9 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider, 2.5 inches taller than a 996 Turbo, thought it would be more than that looking at them, the GTR seems much bigger.Dave
J4CKO said:
Just had a look and the GTR is about 9 inches longer and 2.5 inches wider, 2.5 inches taller than a 996 Turbo, thought it would be more than that looking at them, the GTR seems much bigger.
I guess it's more slab sided and fatter from 50% of the way up, upwards.In the end 5cm wider isn't much but it all adds up eventually.
Every time you say "just 5cm" it's proportionally not that much wider, but before you know it you've gone from a Mini to a Mini Bus!
Dave
Bought my 996TT with 3200 miles on the clock just over seven years ago for £48K. It now has 32,000 on the clock is still mint and nothing major has gone wrong in my ownership. Not sure what it's worth but even if I got £32K tomorrow it's nice to know It's not cost that much to own.
I was going to go for a 993 turbo which were similar money at the time but my wife put her foot down due to the dated interior.
I did think about selling four years ago when building my house and thought it was valuing up about £35K then.
I was going to go for a 993 turbo which were similar money at the time but my wife put her foot down due to the dated interior.
I did think about selling four years ago when building my house and thought it was valuing up about £35K then.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff