Which car maker currently offers the "worst" range of cars?
Discussion
white_goodman said:
I've been keeping a tally and it seems like Vauxhall have overtaken Mitsubishi as the worst range!
Nothing that either brand sells reallytempts me but at least Vauxhall does some interesting stuff like the 170mph Insignia, cool looking Astra GTC, the VXR range including a 280bhp Astra and that mad Holden V8 thing.Mitsubishi doesn't do anything like that, or anything interesting at all for that matter.
Imagine you're renting a car for a week and you can have any car from either manufacturer, someone else is paying and you can go to the Mitsubishi desk or the Vauxhall desk, are you really going to choose a gopping Mirage over a VXR8?
Crafty_ said:
Vauxhall have made the odd stinker, sure - they all have. But the Vectra B was 20 years ago ! 20 ! Get over it people !
As someone above said, look at any non "special" german saloon, they really aren't much different.
Exactly. Also Vauxhall have a decent range of cars these days-reasonably good looking and no worse than they have been at any other point in time.As someone above said, look at any non "special" german saloon, they really aren't much different.
I think however that Peugeot deserves to go out of business for the junk they have been producing for the past 15 years.
Crafty_ said:
Its because people have blind badge hate. The reality is Vauxhalls are no better or worse than anything else out there. But because PH has to slavishly follow every word that Clarkson says we must slag them off at every given opportunity.
Is that true? 25 years ago, mk5 Escorts and mk3 Fiestas were quite rightlly being criticized for being sub-par and dissolving right in front of your eyes. Ford managed to turn their poor image around and now if you're in the market for a Fiesta, Focus or Mondeo-sized car these three vehicles are all a solid choice. Would I buy a Corsa or Astra if I was in the market for that class of car? Probably not. The only mainstream model in the Vauxhall range that has some appeal to me is the Insignia but I would probably only consider one if I couldn't afford the equivalent Ford, VW, Honda or Mazda.That's just my opinion and in isolation, my opinion doesn't really matter but obviously others feel the same. I'm not anti-Vauxhall, as 15+ years ago, I would have picked a Vauxhall over a Ford any day (and did, my first car was a mk3 Astra, which I think was a far nicer car than the mk5 Escort I also looked at) and I happen to have a soft spot for the Vectra B for some reason!
As for the hire car roulette. Yes, I hear the Mirage is pretty poor but you're never going to book a Mirage and get a VXR8! Being sensible, I would choose a Colt, Lancer or ASX over a Corsa, Astra or Mokka any day in this situation and would be least enthusiastic at the car hire place if I was given the keys for a Vauxhall, Hyundai, Peugeot or non-DS Citroen!
Crafty_ said:
Its because people have blind badge hate. The reality is Vauxhalls are no better or worse than anything else out there. But because PH has to slavishly follow every word that Clarkson says we must slag them off at every given opportunity.
Vauxhall don't make anything that I'd buy; but then nor do the majority of other mainstream manufacturers. There may be nothing particularly right with Vauxhall's range but there's nothing wrong with them either - they do the job they're designed to do. Same with most of the mainstream manufacturers really.
white_goodman said:
Is that true? 25 years ago, mk5 Escorts and mk3 Fiestas were quite rightlly being criticized for being sub-par and dissolving right in front of your eyes. Ford managed to turn their poor image around and now if you're in the market for a Fiesta, Focus or Mondeo-sized car these three vehicles are all a solid choice. Would I buy a Corsa or Astra if I was in the market for that class of car? Probably not. The only mainstream model in the Vauxhall range that has some appeal to me is the Insignia but I would probably only consider one if I couldn't afford the equivalent Ford, VW, Honda or Mazda.
That's just my opinion and in isolation, my opinion doesn't really matter but obviously others feel the same. I'm not anti-Vauxhall, as 15+ years ago, I would have picked a Vauxhall over a Ford any day (and did, my first car was a mk3 Astra, which I think was a far nicer car than the mk5 Escort I also looked at) and I happen to have a soft spot for the Vectra B for some reason!
As for the hire car roulette. Yes, I hear the Mirage is pretty poor but you're never going to book a Mirage and get a VXR8! Being sensible, I would choose a Colt, Lancer or ASX over a Corsa, Astra or Mokka any day in this situation and would be least enthusiastic at the car hire place if I was given the keys for a Vauxhall, Hyundai, Peugeot or non-DS Citroen!
When I bought my astra I had a few people who said "why did you buy one of those?"That's just my opinion and in isolation, my opinion doesn't really matter but obviously others feel the same. I'm not anti-Vauxhall, as 15+ years ago, I would have picked a Vauxhall over a Ford any day (and did, my first car was a mk3 Astra, which I think was a far nicer car than the mk5 Escort I also looked at) and I happen to have a soft spot for the Vectra B for some reason!
As for the hire car roulette. Yes, I hear the Mirage is pretty poor but you're never going to book a Mirage and get a VXR8! Being sensible, I would choose a Colt, Lancer or ASX over a Corsa, Astra or Mokka any day in this situation and would be least enthusiastic at the car hire place if I was given the keys for a Vauxhall, Hyundai, Peugeot or non-DS Citroen!
Why not I asked. Other than "Well its a Vauxhall innit, hurr hurr" they can't actually give me a good reason - its the Clarkson effect, they all watch(ed) Top Gear and basically take what the bloke says as gospel because "he knows about cars"
. They are equally perplexed when they find out that I, as "someone who likes cars" don't watch it. I've thrown the keys to people and they've honestly been quite surprised. I also met quite a few people doing the VXR track days who had come along with a friend and were quite surprised at how the cars handled track stuff.
Its all about perception. Do their cars go wrong? sure. Do the base models look a bit poo ? absolutely. Show me another manufacturer where these things aren't true. I have two mates in the trade, one at Vauxhall and one at Audi - guess which one is pulling engines/gearboxes on a regular basis ? Guess which one has unhappy customers with the "I don't expect this of a <brand>" being the most often heard phrase at the service desk ?
My astra has done okay on the depreciation front and although I'm moving on to another brand I still quite like it for what it is. A headlight bulb and a battery is all its cost me over 90k. I cannot complain at all.
As someone above said you've got a 200hp+ pocket rocket in the Corsa, a 280hp Astra, a big V6 turbo saloon and a large V8 saloon.
The Nurbugring corsa got a good write up from the press, the Astra also got good write ups. The Insignia VXR performance wise is a bit of a nearly new bargain and who else offers a big V8 saloon ?
But still, people deride Vauxhalls - I guess it makes them feel good about their own car choice.
If the exact same car came with a different badge people would rave about them.
Crafty_ said:
Its because people have blind badge hate. The reality is Vauxhalls are no better or worse than anything else out there. But because PH has to slavishly follow every word that Clarkson says we must slag them off at every given opportunity.
You stated that my last post on here was 'rubbish'. In fact, it was nothing more than an opinion which differed from your own. What is rubbish is the idea above that I (I can't speak for others) am doing nothing more than regurgitating someone else's opinions.
I have driven Corsas, Astras, Mokkas and Insignias of varying trim levels and with all manner of engine and gearbox combinations. I'll grant that, with a 2.0 diesel engine and a manual gearbox, the Astra isn't completely hopeless in a straight line. However, comparing it to a similarly equipped and engined Leon FR, the difference is night and day. I can say this with confidence because A) your opinion was clearly formed from something other than driving both cars. B) Mine wasn't.
It's the same story with the Corsa, which is a hateful little thing no matter what you ask Vauxhall to do to it. The equivalent Fiesta ecoboost isn't quite perfect. The dash is a bit button-tastic and the adjustment on the steering wheel isn't quite sufficient (I'm a normal size, but prefer an odd driving position, so it's partially my fault. That said, plenty of other cars manage). However, in any other sense, the Corsa is so many, many miles behind the Fiesta it really isn't a like for like comparison.
I'll borrow from Clarkson (because it's apt). In the 1.4 auto Corsa, the accelerator really is nothing more than a switch which increases the volume of the dreadful buzzing sound masquerading for engine noise, endlessly and tirelessly emanating from the front. I recently had the grave misfortune of taking one over 200 motorway miles and by the time I got to Bristol I really was hoping to go deaf, if only to get away from the sound.
Before you say it, I know it's hardly marketed as a motorway mile muncher, but here, now, in 2015, there really is no need for a mainstream manufacturer to be turning out a car (certainly not for the money that Vauxhall charge) which cannot complete a simple up-country jaunt without driving the poor occupant to consider permanent disablement of a primary sense the lesser of two evils.
That said, the thing for you (and many others) to do is to stop getting your opinions second hand from strangers (something you accused me of, with a certain delicious irony) and start actually driving cars before opining about them. In most cases, it's really rather a lot of fun.
ferrariF50lover said:
That said, the thing for you (and many others) to do is to stop getting your opinions second hand from strangers (something you accused me of, with a certain delicious irony) and start actually driving cars before opining about them. In most cases, it's really rather a lot of fun.
Oh dear, someone's thrown their toys out the pram What "second hand" opinions have I got from strangers exactly ?
You mean the 8 years in an Astra ? or the 4 before that in a Leon ?
Or are you talking about the people who, once they actually got in a Vx expressed first hand to me that the cars were not anywhere near as bad as they had been led to believe?
Or do you mean the experiences of friends who have to repair cars that show me examples, pictures, TSBs etc ?
Sorry but your silly assumptions about what I have and haven't driven are just that. You have no idea what cars I've driven.
To say that any car is "just about okay in a straight line" in this day and age is a bit pathetic, some cars may be better than others but there is nothing truly horrendous out there, unlike maybe 25+ years ago.
If you don't like Vauxhalls fine, but don't try to make ridiculous claims and tell me what I have/haven't experienced that allow me to form opinions.
Crafty_ said:
When I bought my astra I had a few people who said "why did you buy one of those?"
Why not I asked. Other than "Well its a Vauxhall innit, hurr hurr" they can't actually give me a good reason - its the Clarkson effect, they all watch(ed) Top Gear and basically take what the bloke says as gospel because "he knows about cars". They are equally perplexed when they find out that I, as "someone who likes cars" don't watch it.
I've thrown the keys to people and they've honestly been quite surprised. I also met quite a few people doing the VXR track days who had come along with a friend and were quite surprised at how the cars handled track stuff.
Its all about perception. Do their cars go wrong? sure. Do the base models look a bit poo ? absolutely. Show me another manufacturer where these things aren't true. I have two mates in the trade, one at Vauxhall and one at Audi - guess which one is pulling engines/gearboxes on a regular basis ? Guess which one has unhappy customers with the "I don't expect this of a <brand>" being the most often heard phrase at the service desk ?
My astra has done okay on the depreciation front and although I'm moving on to another brand I still quite like it for what it is. A headlight bulb and a battery is all its cost me over 90k. I cannot complain at all.
As someone above said you've got a 200hp+ pocket rocket in the Corsa, a 280hp Astra, a big V6 turbo saloon and a large V8 saloon.
The Nurbugring corsa got a good write up from the press, the Astra also got good write ups. The Insignia VXR performance wise is a bit of a nearly new bargain and who else offers a big V8 saloon ?
But still, people deride Vauxhalls - I guess it makes them feel good about their own car choice.
If the exact same car came with a different badge people would rave about them.
Sorry Crafty. I'm guessing you have a VXR and I'm sure it's more fun and a lot faster than my Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. I can't really put my finger on it because the VXR range should hit the spot for me but it doesn't. If I was in the market for that type of car, I would probably need 5 doors, so Focus ST or Golf GTI. Likewise, if 3 doors would do, I would probably go Megane RS or Scirocco. I would like to have a go in a VXR and be proved wrong but I still think I would probably buy something else.Why not I asked. Other than "Well its a Vauxhall innit, hurr hurr" they can't actually give me a good reason - its the Clarkson effect, they all watch(ed) Top Gear and basically take what the bloke says as gospel because "he knows about cars"
. They are equally perplexed when they find out that I, as "someone who likes cars" don't watch it. I've thrown the keys to people and they've honestly been quite surprised. I also met quite a few people doing the VXR track days who had come along with a friend and were quite surprised at how the cars handled track stuff.
Its all about perception. Do their cars go wrong? sure. Do the base models look a bit poo ? absolutely. Show me another manufacturer where these things aren't true. I have two mates in the trade, one at Vauxhall and one at Audi - guess which one is pulling engines/gearboxes on a regular basis ? Guess which one has unhappy customers with the "I don't expect this of a <brand>" being the most often heard phrase at the service desk ?
My astra has done okay on the depreciation front and although I'm moving on to another brand I still quite like it for what it is. A headlight bulb and a battery is all its cost me over 90k. I cannot complain at all.
As someone above said you've got a 200hp+ pocket rocket in the Corsa, a 280hp Astra, a big V6 turbo saloon and a large V8 saloon.
The Nurbugring corsa got a good write up from the press, the Astra also got good write ups. The Insignia VXR performance wise is a bit of a nearly new bargain and who else offers a big V8 saloon ?
But still, people deride Vauxhalls - I guess it makes them feel good about their own car choice.
If the exact same car came with a different badge people would rave about them.
As I said, I'm not anti-Vauxhall at all and wouldn't question their reliability but I just find the non-VXR models too bland and the VXRs a bit shouty. There are plenty of Vauxhalls that I would have quite happily owned in the past and in fact my first car was a Vauxhall (mk3.5 Astra 1.4 LS). I was pretty happy with it at the time but it has to be said that every car that I have owned since has driven better (although not necessarily been more reliable) and I have never been tempted in the last 13 years since I sold that car and got a 205 GTi to go back to a Vauxhall. The only exception being one of these in this colour!
As for JC, I think he's a bit of an idiot (albeit sometimes an entertaining one), so would never go too much on his opinion, especially as he seems to change his opinion of certain cars very frequently and would doubtless hate most of the cars that I have owned!
I over the last few weeks I've had reason to drive a number or differing cars over enough miles to form a reasonable opinion of them all.
Fiesta, obviously built to a price but great fun to drive, 1.0 triple genuinely a surprise enough power to enjoy yourself, great sound.
Astra 1.6, real sheep in wolfs clothing. Thought it looked quite good, looked forward to driving it, so disappointied, 1.6 has no power, handling/ride light years behind the ford, terrible sound system, handbrake traps my finger, tragic computer operation absolutely miles off the pace as a driving experince
Corsa, as Astra, dull dull dull
Surprise was Seat Leon FR, real grunt from Diesel engine, quality interior great ergonomics, handing and ride up there with Fords best would seriously consider buying if in the market,
My normal Mini Cooper s mk2 has many faults, ergonomics hopeless, ride/ handling/ steering not as resolved as Seat or Ford does have loads of character, quite quick,l interior is unique and different from anything else. Manages to feel bespoke, wher other feel generic.
Fiesta, obviously built to a price but great fun to drive, 1.0 triple genuinely a surprise enough power to enjoy yourself, great sound.
Astra 1.6, real sheep in wolfs clothing. Thought it looked quite good, looked forward to driving it, so disappointied, 1.6 has no power, handling/ride light years behind the ford, terrible sound system, handbrake traps my finger, tragic computer operation absolutely miles off the pace as a driving experince
Corsa, as Astra, dull dull dull
Surprise was Seat Leon FR, real grunt from Diesel engine, quality interior great ergonomics, handing and ride up there with Fords best would seriously consider buying if in the market,
My normal Mini Cooper s mk2 has many faults, ergonomics hopeless, ride/ handling/ steering not as resolved as Seat or Ford does have loads of character, quite quick,l interior is unique and different from anything else. Manages to feel bespoke, wher other feel generic.
The current Astra VXR seems to be a lot better than the latest Focus ST.
Vauxhall may not make much that is special but there are few manufacturers that do.
VAG stuff in general is overpriced, dull tat. You are left with the French who have lost their way and then the Koreans. Is VX that bad in such company? I don't think so.
Clarkson effect indeed.
Vauxhall may not make much that is special but there are few manufacturers that do.
VAG stuff in general is overpriced, dull tat. You are left with the French who have lost their way and then the Koreans. Is VX that bad in such company? I don't think so.
Clarkson effect indeed.
I over the last few weeks I've had reason to drive a number or differing cars over enough miles to form a reasonable opinion of them all.
Fiesta, obviously built to a price but great fun to drive, 1.0 triple genuinely a surprise enough power to enjoy yourself, great sound.
Astra 1.6, real sheep in wolfs clothing. Thought it looked quite good, looked forward to driving it, so disappointied, 1.6 has no power, handling/ride light years behind the ford, terrible sound system, handbrake traps my finger, tragic computer operation absolutely miles off the pace as a driving experince
Corsa, as Astra, dull dull dull
Surprise was Seat Leon FR, real grunt from Diesel engine, quality interior great ergonomics, handing and ride up there with Fords best would seriously consider buying if in the market,
My normal Mini Cooper s mk2 has many faults, ergonomics hopeless, ride/ handling/ steering not as resolved as Seat or Ford does have loads of character, quite quick,l interior is unique and different from anything else. Manages to feel bespoke, wher other feel generic.
Fiesta, obviously built to a price but great fun to drive, 1.0 triple genuinely a surprise enough power to enjoy yourself, great sound.
Astra 1.6, real sheep in wolfs clothing. Thought it looked quite good, looked forward to driving it, so disappointied, 1.6 has no power, handling/ride light years behind the ford, terrible sound system, handbrake traps my finger, tragic computer operation absolutely miles off the pace as a driving experince
Corsa, as Astra, dull dull dull
Surprise was Seat Leon FR, real grunt from Diesel engine, quality interior great ergonomics, handing and ride up there with Fords best would seriously consider buying if in the market,
My normal Mini Cooper s mk2 has many faults, ergonomics hopeless, ride/ handling/ steering not as resolved as Seat or Ford does have loads of character, quite quick,l interior is unique and different from anything else. Manages to feel bespoke, wher other feel generic.
SidewaysSi said:
The current Astra VXR seems to be a lot better than the latest Focus ST.
Vauxhall may not make much that is special but there are few manufacturers that do.
VAG stuff in general is overpriced, dull tat. You are left with the French who have lost their way and then the Koreans. Is VX that bad in such company? I don't think so.
Clarkson effect indeed.
VAG stuff is tat? Thats just nonsense. Audis are not the last word in deft handling balance but you wouldn't find better cabins in any cars. Beautifully made out of top quality materials.And thats true of an A1 s much as an R8.Vauxhall may not make much that is special but there are few manufacturers that do.
VAG stuff in general is overpriced, dull tat. You are left with the French who have lost their way and then the Koreans. Is VX that bad in such company? I don't think so.
Clarkson effect indeed.
The Golf is still the standard in small family cars, and what is there out there you think is better than it. Not more interesting or quirky but rationally just better? And thats without building in the solid residuals and good sense they make.
Dblue said:
VAG stuff is tat? Thats just nonsense. Audis are not the last word in deft handling balance but you wouldn't find better cabins in any cars. Beautifully made out of top quality materials.And thats true of an A1 s much as an R8.
Audi quality is nose diving. Even grab handles are held in with plastic clips instead of screws.The less said about oily bits the better. Check out the cam chain tensioner issues, the ongoing farce with chocolate piston rings, flappy manifolds failing, stretchy cam chains, multitronic gearboxes, waterlogged ECus... there is a long, long list unfortunately.
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