Which car maker currently offers the "worst" range of cars?
Discussion
Johnnytheboy said:
Chrysler Dodge
/thread
Not so fast! I'll grant you the Chrysler badge has zero image in the UK and not much in the US to be honest but are the cars really that bad? First up, we have the Chrysler 300/thread
which is a distinctive and decent, cheaper alternative to something German. If you yearn for the days of big RWD Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers, this is probably the car for you...oh, and you can get it with a Hemi, which is probably the coolest sounding engine ever!
Next, the Grand Voyager. Yes, the full-size MPV market in the UK is not a big one but this is arguably the biggest and the best. Yes, I would probably rather try and make something sportier like an SMAX work but if you have 3+ kids and value space and practicality over all else, this is your car. In North America, this car and its cheaper Dodge equivalent is so popular (they are literally everywhere) that Ford and GM have given up trying to compete. People are trending towards more stylish SUVs/crossovers over there too but the Grand Voyager is still King in terms of value, space and practicality.
Lastly, the less said about the Ypsilon the better. If it had a Lancia badge it might be considered as quite chic but it doesn't, so just no!
Interestingly, the Ypsilon isn't sold in North America but Chrysler still have only a 3 car range (the other being the Chrysler 200, which is a dull but decent Ford Mondeo-sized competitor).
To be fair, when could you last buy a new Dodge in the UK? In North America, perhaps a bad comparison but consider Dodge as the MG to Chrysler's Rover. Dodge has quite a muscle car heritage and IMHO, most Dodge vehicles look better than their competitors from Ford and GM.
Dodge Dart (a Focus rival based on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta but better looking, although the interior is pretty nasty).
Dodge Charger - if you don't get nicked by a Crown Vic, it'll probably be by a Hemi-powered Charger!
Dodge Challenger - arguably the best looking and definitely the most practical of the modern muscle cars.
Viper - more outlandish and somehow way cooler than the Corvette.
Ram 1500 - the coolest pickup truck out there!
Dodge Durango - a rather handsome Jeep-based 7-seater SUV.
And lets not also conveniently forget that Jeep are part of Chrysler Dodge
Chrysler Dodge Jeep have the worst range of cars. Really?
I think it's hard to defend Chrysler/dodge/jeep, because by and large, their cars are unsuitable for the UK market when compared with the competitors that are cheaper to buy and more economical to run, and also better products in other ways. You can get massive discounts off them new, but only because nobody wants them - and even still, they're an awful new buy because you'll lose out massively on depreciation vs most of the competitors that will keep their value better. So I don't think you can win if you buy a Chrysler/dodge/jeep product in the UK.
My thoughts on this... Subaru seemed to give up on the UK market a long time ago, they've been churning out cars with the same old, uneconomical engines for years. Even the new WRX doesn't seem to have gained much attention. Same goes for Mitsubishi apart from the ASX perhaps.
Interesting that nobody has mentioned Nissan...yes they've got the Quashqai, but apart from that they've gone way downhill when you compare with their earlier efforts. The Renault association killed anything good they had going.
Vauxhall are still incapable of making anything interesting apart from overpriced models for chavs (sorry!)
Suzuki is an odd one, the swift is still good but seems like an overhaul wouldn't hurt it. Their other efforts pale compared to the competition.
Citroen...definitely a contender. They've made some good efforts, like the DS5. But their poor dealerships and shoddy build quality let the entire range down, regardless of model. A real shame.
MG, Lancia, proton, Chrysler...all worth avoiding IMO.
At the end of the day though...comes down to opinion and not much else. To someone not very interested in cars, a proton might seem like the perfect choice (indeed I have witnessed the odd newish one on the roads now and again).
Interesting that nobody has mentioned Nissan...yes they've got the Quashqai, but apart from that they've gone way downhill when you compare with their earlier efforts. The Renault association killed anything good they had going.
Vauxhall are still incapable of making anything interesting apart from overpriced models for chavs (sorry!)
Suzuki is an odd one, the swift is still good but seems like an overhaul wouldn't hurt it. Their other efforts pale compared to the competition.
Citroen...definitely a contender. They've made some good efforts, like the DS5. But their poor dealerships and shoddy build quality let the entire range down, regardless of model. A real shame.
MG, Lancia, proton, Chrysler...all worth avoiding IMO.
At the end of the day though...comes down to opinion and not much else. To someone not very interested in cars, a proton might seem like the perfect choice (indeed I have witnessed the odd newish one on the roads now and again).
joshc said:
I think it's hard to defend Chrysler/dodge/jeep, because by and large, their cars are unsuitable for the UK market when compared with the competitors that are cheaper to buy and more economical to run, and also better products in other ways. You can get massive discounts off them new, but only because nobody wants them - and even still, they're an awful new buy because you'll lose out massively on depreciation vs most of the competitors that will keep their value better. So I don't think you can win if you buy a Chrysler/dodge/jeep product in the UK.
That's also true but are Jeep residuals (and I'm talking the new-style Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler) rather than some of the older models really that bad? I would take a Grand Cherokee any day over the equivalent Land Rover.joshc said:
Interesting that nobody has mentioned Nissan...yes they've got the Quashqai, but apart from that they've gone way downhill when you compare with their earlier efforts. The Renault association killed anything good they had going.
Isn't the Juke pretty popular and don't forget the 370Z and GTR. With regards to Suzuki, yes I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned too. Swift is a decent little car and the Grand Vitara was always a decent budget SUV. Isn't there a new one coming out?white_goodman said:
That's also true but are Jeep residuals (and I'm talking the new-style Grand Cherokee and the Wrangler) rather than some of the older models really that bad? I would take a Grand Cherokee any day over the equivalent Land Rover.
Back home in the US, Chrysler products have dismal reliability, poor fit and finish and horrible residual values (Jeeps Wranglers and Grand Cherokees are the exceptions)Chrysler 300/Chargers and Challengers are normally poorly maintained with 24" chrome rims on them, the dealers had to massively discount the dart to sell them, the 200 is a hire car special.
white_goodman said:
Inspired by the recent TG Peugeot feature, which car manufacturer in your opinion currently offers the worst range of cars? We'll spare the newbies from China (Great Wall etc) and just stick with the established players. It's probably quite difficult today to buy a genuinely bad car, so criteria for consideration can be:
styling
performance, emissions and fuel consumption
driving experience
packaging
build quality
value/depreciation
I got what they were saying about Peugeot (although they didn't actually say it was the worst) having grown up in the 80s and 90s with the 05 and 06 series cars and their pretty Pininfarina styling and sporty driving dynamics and at one point, as a 205 GTi owner I was a massive Peugeot fanboy but for some reason (and it may have started with the 307), they decided to turn their back on all that. Having said that, there's still something quite chic about a small French (or Italian car) compared to a small Ford/Vauxhall and the 208 looks pretty good if not best in class. The GTi is supposed to be pretty good and even the 308 is not a bad looking car now but probably not a car that many people will buy!
A lot of the weaker car manufacturers (Renault, Fiat etc) still make good small cars but not big ones, so maybe being able to make an attractive, fun small car is a good indicator of whether a manufacturer is any good or not?
On this basis, I would nominate Hyundai and Vauxhall, as the i10/i20 and Agila/Corsa are all utterly bland and joyless and with a couple of exceptions (Santa Fe and VXR8), none of their other products do anything for me either or offer any obvious advantages over the competition. Having said that, I have looked at Hyundai on the last two occasions that I have bought a car and they do offer good value and excellent levels of equipment and warranty but for me, even the "sporty" ones (Veloster) feel too "white goods".
Perhaps I am being unfair to Hyundai and Vauxhall then? It hurts me to say it, as I love and have owned and enjoyed fast Imprezas but what do Subaru currently offer? No Legacy, a non-existent Impreza range, an utterly bland and conventional Forester and yes, they do have the BRZ which they did most of the engineering development on but Toyota screwed them on the marketing and production i.e. you're more likely to be able to get hold of and get a better deal on a GT86, so why would you buy the Subaru version, unless you absolutely had to have bright blue! The rest of the range is pretty bland in the styling department whilst offering poor value and uncompetitive performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Any thoughts?
Hyundai has a much better model range outside of the EU. In the US you can get the Genesis coupe (that I have just imported here) the Genesis sedan and the Equus, which are 3 cars on an entirely different level than a "normal" Hyundaistyling
performance, emissions and fuel consumption
driving experience
packaging
build quality
value/depreciation
I got what they were saying about Peugeot (although they didn't actually say it was the worst) having grown up in the 80s and 90s with the 05 and 06 series cars and their pretty Pininfarina styling and sporty driving dynamics and at one point, as a 205 GTi owner I was a massive Peugeot fanboy but for some reason (and it may have started with the 307), they decided to turn their back on all that. Having said that, there's still something quite chic about a small French (or Italian car) compared to a small Ford/Vauxhall and the 208 looks pretty good if not best in class. The GTi is supposed to be pretty good and even the 308 is not a bad looking car now but probably not a car that many people will buy!
A lot of the weaker car manufacturers (Renault, Fiat etc) still make good small cars but not big ones, so maybe being able to make an attractive, fun small car is a good indicator of whether a manufacturer is any good or not?
On this basis, I would nominate Hyundai and Vauxhall, as the i10/i20 and Agila/Corsa are all utterly bland and joyless and with a couple of exceptions (Santa Fe and VXR8), none of their other products do anything for me either or offer any obvious advantages over the competition. Having said that, I have looked at Hyundai on the last two occasions that I have bought a car and they do offer good value and excellent levels of equipment and warranty but for me, even the "sporty" ones (Veloster) feel too "white goods".
Perhaps I am being unfair to Hyundai and Vauxhall then? It hurts me to say it, as I love and have owned and enjoyed fast Imprezas but what do Subaru currently offer? No Legacy, a non-existent Impreza range, an utterly bland and conventional Forester and yes, they do have the BRZ which they did most of the engineering development on but Toyota screwed them on the marketing and production i.e. you're more likely to be able to get hold of and get a better deal on a GT86, so why would you buy the Subaru version, unless you absolutely had to have bright blue! The rest of the range is pretty bland in the styling department whilst offering poor value and uncompetitive performance, fuel economy and emissions.
Any thoughts?
white_goodman said:
Not so fast! I'll grant you the Chrysler badge has zero image in the UK and not much in the US to be honest but are the cars really that bad? First up, we have the Chrysler 300
which is a distinctive and decent, cheaper alternative to something German. If you yearn for the days of big RWD Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers, this is probably the car for you...oh, and you can get it with a Hemi, which is probably the coolest sounding engine ever!
Next, the Grand Voyager. Yes, the full-size MPV market in the UK is not a big one but this is arguably the biggest and the best. Yes, I would probably rather try and make something sportier like an SMAX work but if you have 3+ kids and value space and practicality over all else, this is your car. In North America, this car and its cheaper Dodge equivalent is so popular (they are literally everywhere) that Ford and GM have given up trying to compete. People are trending towards more stylish SUVs/crossovers over there too but the Grand Voyager is still King in terms of value, space and practicality.
Lastly, the less said about the Ypsilon the better. If it had a Lancia badge it might be considered as quite chic but it doesn't, so just no!
Interestingly, the Ypsilon isn't sold in North America but Chrysler still have only a 3 car range (the other being the Chrysler 200, which is a dull but decent Ford Mondeo-sized competitor).
To be fair, when could you last buy a new Dodge in the UK? In North America, perhaps a bad comparison but consider Dodge as the MG to Chrysler's Rover. Dodge has quite a muscle car heritage and IMHO, most Dodge vehicles look better than their competitors from Ford and GM.
Dodge Dart (a Focus rival based on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta but better looking, although the interior is pretty nasty).
Dodge Charger - if you don't get nicked by a Crown Vic, it'll probably be by a Hemi-powered Charger!
Dodge Challenger - arguably the best looking and definitely the most practical of the modern muscle cars.
Viper - more outlandish and somehow way cooler than the Corvette.
Ram 1500 - the coolest pickup truck out there!
Dodge Durango - a rather handsome Jeep-based 7-seater SUV.
And lets not also conveniently forget that Jeep are part of Chrysler Dodge
Chrysler Dodge Jeep have the worst range of cars. Really?
Chaps and chapesses, I think I've sussed out what happened to 300bhp.which is a distinctive and decent, cheaper alternative to something German. If you yearn for the days of big RWD Fords, Vauxhalls and Rovers, this is probably the car for you...oh, and you can get it with a Hemi, which is probably the coolest sounding engine ever!
Next, the Grand Voyager. Yes, the full-size MPV market in the UK is not a big one but this is arguably the biggest and the best. Yes, I would probably rather try and make something sportier like an SMAX work but if you have 3+ kids and value space and practicality over all else, this is your car. In North America, this car and its cheaper Dodge equivalent is so popular (they are literally everywhere) that Ford and GM have given up trying to compete. People are trending towards more stylish SUVs/crossovers over there too but the Grand Voyager is still King in terms of value, space and practicality.
Lastly, the less said about the Ypsilon the better. If it had a Lancia badge it might be considered as quite chic but it doesn't, so just no!
Interestingly, the Ypsilon isn't sold in North America but Chrysler still have only a 3 car range (the other being the Chrysler 200, which is a dull but decent Ford Mondeo-sized competitor).
To be fair, when could you last buy a new Dodge in the UK? In North America, perhaps a bad comparison but consider Dodge as the MG to Chrysler's Rover. Dodge has quite a muscle car heritage and IMHO, most Dodge vehicles look better than their competitors from Ford and GM.
Dodge Dart (a Focus rival based on an Alfa Romeo Giulietta but better looking, although the interior is pretty nasty).
Dodge Charger - if you don't get nicked by a Crown Vic, it'll probably be by a Hemi-powered Charger!
Dodge Challenger - arguably the best looking and definitely the most practical of the modern muscle cars.
Viper - more outlandish and somehow way cooler than the Corvette.
Ram 1500 - the coolest pickup truck out there!
Dodge Durango - a rather handsome Jeep-based 7-seater SUV.
And lets not also conveniently forget that Jeep are part of Chrysler Dodge
Chrysler Dodge Jeep have the worst range of cars. Really?
Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
white_goodman said:
Isn't the Juke pretty popular and don't forget the 370Z and GTR. With regards to Suzuki, yes I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned too. Swift is a decent little car and the Grand Vitara was always a decent budget SUV. Isn't there a new one coming out?
Yeah as far as I know the Jeep residuals are pretty bad. Sorry, forgot to say I meant apart from the Gtr and 370z! The juke might be popular but it doesn't mean it's any good
I still think Nissans range is weird.vikingaero said:
Audi, BMW & Merc have produced cars to fill niches within niches within niches.
Parts of the Merc range deserve a mention. Far too many models and far too many that don't live up to expectations. The B class is an awful creation that should have never existed, same goes for the R class and a couple others!joshc said:
Yeah as far as I know the Jeep residuals are pretty bad.
Sorry, forgot to say I meant apart from the Gtr and 370z! The juke might be popular but it doesn't mean it's any good I still think Nissans range is weird.
Nissans range is weird but it gives customers what they think they want - jacked up pseudo 4WDs. The vast majority of Pukes and Cashcows sold are FWD variants. Nissans other customers (hire and fleet) get a supply of the less popular cars - Micras, Notes etc.Sorry, forgot to say I meant apart from the Gtr and 370z! The juke might be popular but it doesn't mean it's any good
I still think Nissans range is weird.fivepointnine said:
Back home in the US, Chrysler products have dismal reliability, poor fit and finish and horrible residual values (Jeeps Wranglers and Grand Cherokees are the exceptions)
Chrysler 300/Chargers and Challengers are normally poorly maintained with 24" chrome rims on them, the dealers had to massively discount the dart to sell them, the 200 is a hire car special.
There is a new Chrysler 200!Chrysler 300/Chargers and Challengers are normally poorly maintained with 24" chrome rims on them, the dealers had to massively discount the dart to sell them, the 200 is a hire car special.
http://www.chrysler.ca/en/2015/200/overview
vikingaero said:
Monkeylegend said:
Chaps and chapesses, I think I've sussed out what happened to 300bhp.
Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
Audi, BMW & Merc have produced cars to fill niches within niches within niches.Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
Monkeylegend said:
Chaps and chapesses, I think I've sussed out what happened to 300bhp.
Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
Haha, sorry to disappoint but I am not he! Just moved to Canada in 2013 and American cars (particularly new ones) are a lot better than I thought and I wanted to provide a more balanced view. Owned a 2001 Grand Cherokee and a 2004 Chrysler Sebring initially (both decent cars), although now have a newer Toyota and a Honda (not really through choice but budget). My brother-in-law has a 2011 new-style Grand Cherokee, which is lovely and much nicer than a Freelander. Wrangler is probably more than a match for a Defender off-road (and just as crude on it) and has the added benefit of a standard soft top. Maybe not quite as practical though (a Ford/Chevrolet/Dodge pickup is the farmer's choice). Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
white_goodman said:
Monkeylegend said:
Chaps and chapesses, I think I've sussed out what happened to 300bhp.
Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
Haha, sorry to disappoint but I am not he! Just moved to Canada in 2013 and American cars (particularly new ones) are a lot better than I thought and I wanted to provide a more balanced view. Owned a 2001 Grand Cherokee and a 2004 Chrysler Sebring initially (both decent cars), although now have a newer Toyota and a Honda (not really through choice but budget). My brother-in-law has a 2011 new-style Grand Cherokee, which is lovely and much nicer than a Freelander. Wrangler is probably more than a match for a Defender off-road (and just as crude on it) and has the added benefit of a standard soft top. Maybe not quite as practical though (a Ford/Chevrolet/Dodge pickup is the farmer's choice). Good to see nobody knocking Mercedes.
A few people have mentioned Citroen being saved by their DS range of cars. I was at the Geneva motor show this year where there was a Citroen and a DS stand which the two appearing to be separate, though beside each other. I enquired with one of the staff on the DS half who told me that last year Citroen and DS split and are now two separate brands with DS being the 'premium' brand. I asked if this was like Lexus is to Toyota and was told, 'sort of, yes'. I had never heard of this before, but the new DS5s and a few others were Citroen logo free and had new DS badging.
DanielSan said:
SebastienClement said:
MG must win this.
I think we have a winner. A 2 car range, both of which are crap. white_goodman said:
We'll spare the newbies from China (Great Wall etc)...
This thread has made me realise that I actually have no idea what most of the manufacturers are even making now. A few years back I could have listed every car on sale in the UK along with every engine choice, now every single manufacturer seems to be churning out identical mpv/crossover/pretend 4x4 things and I have no idea which one is which.
That said, Perodua seem to still sell only horrible little boxes and there is not a single Vauxhall I would ever consider owning. The Koreans and French make some perfectly decent cars and the Japanese make competent and reliable (if utterly uninteresting) cars though I feel their heyday was back in the 90s
.
That said, Perodua seem to still sell only horrible little boxes and there is not a single Vauxhall I would ever consider owning. The Koreans and French make some perfectly decent cars and the Japanese make competent and reliable (if utterly uninteresting) cars though I feel their heyday was back in the 90s
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